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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #136
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    Originally posted by LaterthanNever
    Supposedly, Ip decided to teach Bruce privately because he(Ip) felt Lee was one of the more talented students and took a liking to him.
    Um…I’m curious where you heard this because everything I’ve read has pointed out that after Ip’s students didn’t want Bruce training at the school anymore Ip told William Cheung to take him under his wing and teach him privately. Many believe this was because Bruce was part white but it’s known that he didn’t get along with many of the senior students in Ip’s school because, as Matt_WCK pointed out, Bruce couldn’t abide not being the top man. This is how he’s been characterized by virtually everyone who ever knew him.

    10 seconds or 11 seconds..does it matter? I trained under Jesse for a time and have met Taky(at Jesses' funeral). I've also met Linda (Lee). None of them seemed like people who would exaggerate.

    "Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]"

    Would it matter if it was 3 minutes vs. 25 minutes?(I'm skeptical about the 25 minute claim. Most fights don't last that long). Lee won the match.
    You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didn’t seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are. Bruce Lee said, “To tell you the truth, I can beat anyone in the world!”, and he doesn’t seem like the type of guy who could exaggerate? And don’t forget Jesse Glover wasn’t there so he had nothing to exaggerate about. Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words “I give up”? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so.

    "Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians."

    Remember..when you are dead..it's usually for a very long time
    Last I checked..Bruce isn't going to reanimate and climb out of the grave to rebut the claim

    "This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything."

    I have not gotten that vibe in meeting Linda at all(dishonesty). It must feel good to be a troll from the safety of your laptop ------- miles away from Seattle.(where he is buried). And "if"? If grandma had b-lls..she'd be grandpa!

    " His friends could be lying or embellishing."

    As could Wong Jack Man or just about anyone!
    That’s funny because teaching Caucasians was never really the issue. I don’t know why anyone in the JKD camp would ever keep trying to point this out as the reason the match happened when there’s mountains of circumstantial evidence that shows this to be totally bunk. Here are just a few things to consider:

    1. Wong Jack Man trained for years the first Caucasian to ever win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978.
    2. For years he trained guys like Brent Hamby (a Caucasian) who was a USAWKF National San Shou champion.
    3. He trained Sifu Scott Jenson (another Caucasian) who has been featured in some recent issues of KF Magazine.
    4. For a time he also trained me and guess what? I’m Caucasian.

    Besides that I saw Wong Sifu’s classes to be made up of white, black, and Chinese students. Once again, there was prejudice against westerners among some people in the Chinese community (understandable considering how Asians were treated back then) but from what I’ve gathered from my discussions with certain people in the SF Chinatown community, it was mainly some of the Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun masters who felt that way.

    Also, it wasn’t long after the arguments Lee had with WJM over the interview and the Chinese Pacific Weekly article that:

    1. Lee closed his Oakland school.
    2. He moved out of the area.
    3. He put down Wing Chun and changed his style.

    Why point out that Bruce can’t reanimate to rebut the claims made by Wong when he didn’t rebut them while he was alive? It’s not like he didn’t have years to make a public announcement about it.
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 08-23-2012 at 10:54 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  2. #137
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    "You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didn’t seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are."

    I'm not assuming anything here. I've never met nor spoken with the aforementioned people.


    "Bruce Lee said, “To tell you the truth, I can beat anyone in the world!”, and he doesn’t seem like the type of guy who could exaggerate?"

    I believe he said "to tell you the truth, I THINK I COULD beat anyone in the world". A bit different.


    "And don’t forget Jesse Glover wasn’t there so he had nothing to exaggerate about. "


    I don't know about the other fight..but Jesse WAS there at the Wong Jack Man match! He told me once after class.


    "Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words “I give up”? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so. "

    I don't know. My initial feeling would be that the aforementioned people were friends of Wong Jack Man and hence didn't want to corroborate that he lost? Why does this matter?

    "Um…I’m curious where you heard this because everything I’ve read has pointed out that after Ip’s students didn’t want Bruce training at the school anymore Ip told William Cheung to take him under his wing and teach him privately."

    Most of what I've understood up to this point is that it was the late Wong Shun Leung who taught Bruce in addition to Ip Man. Then of course you have the late Grandmaster Yeung Fook who resided in Seattle who taught Bruce the lesser known "Red Boat Wing Chun". Master Fook taught Bruce for I believe 8 years.


    "Many believe this was because Bruce was part white but it’s known that he didn’t get along with many of the senior students in Ip’s school because, as Matt_WCK pointed out, Bruce couldn’t abide not being the top man."

    Supposedly Bruce was 1/4 German. But how does one go about proving this anyway? Did Matt_WCK meet Bruce in the flesh? Or Ip Man? Like I said..when yer dead..people can claim whatever they wish. One sifu of William Cheung once came out with an article that said that Bruce left WC beacuse he was "prevented from learning the "secrets" of WC" (which was supposedly only taught to William Cheung)..and I laughed my arse off. Being one of Jesses' students..I will never bad mouth Bruce..I'm sorry! True, he was not perfect..but name one person on earth who is..


    "This is how he’s been characterized by virtually everyone who ever knew him. "

    Oh? Since when? Never heard Jesse say that once. Nor Taky. Nor have I heard Pat Strong say that either. Nor the children of the late Ed Hart(who I believe spent time w/ Bruce). A fellow classmate of mine who studied with Jesse AND James DeMile never told me that DeMile said that to him. Virtually everyone eh?

    "That’s funny because teaching Caucasians was never really the issue. "

    Then why oh why were the "elders" who I believe were never named always recorded as being miffed and "losing face" because of Bruce teaching the "guai lo"?


    "1. Wong Jack Man trained for years the first Caucasian to ever win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978.
    2. For years he trained guys like Brent Hamby (a Caucasian) who was a USAWKF National San Shou champion.
    3. He trained Sifu Scott Jenson (another Caucasian) who has been featured in some recent issues of KF Magazine.
    4. For a time he also trained me and guess what? I’m Caucasian."

    I'm white too and I was trained by an African American who was taught by Bruce. Your point is? What I don't get is..if these elders were ****ed at Bruce for teaching non chinese? Why didn't they send a chinese of their choosing to issue an ultimatum to kick Wong Jack Man's ass?


    Also, it wasn’t long after the arguments Lee had with WJM over the interview and the Chinese Pacific Weekly article that:

    "1. Lee closed his Oakland school."

    To concentrate on movies

    "2. He moved out of the area."

    See answer to #1


    "3. He put down Wing Chun and changed his style."

    He couldn't have felt that WC was completely inferior as whatever he added later on was just that..an ADDITION to WC. Most of what I have heard consistently was that Bruce was rather impatient and his "leaving" as people claim was based on this rather than not wanting to be the 'top dog"

    "Why point out that Bruce can’t reanimate to rebut the claims made by Wong when he didn’t rebut them while he was alive? "

    At a certain point..people just kind of feel that they are beyond the bickering.


    "It’s not like he didn’t have years to make a public announcement about it. "

    He did..but it could also be that he didn't feel he had chi to waste

  3. #138
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    Later than never,

    Sorry but you are mistaken. You might have mis-heard Jesse Glover as he was not at BL/WJM event.

  4. #139
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    I will ask one of my kung fu brothers who has studied w/ Jesse for over 20 years.

    Were you there incidentally?


    I guess I just don't really understand the relevance of resurrecting a fight which happened over 30 years ago. What is to be gained from all of this? Bragging rights? "proof" that Bruce wasn't what he claimed? Puffery that WC is the best?
    Proof that Wong Jack Man was better?

    It's done fellas!!!

  5. #140
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    I said this before, Northern Shaolin and Siu Lum Fighter, why does it matter. It was 50-60 years ago, Bruce is dead and WJM is an old man. No one in the JKD community that I know of cares a **** about it, and it's not something we think about. We use it to talk about how it was the catalyst for the development of JKD, which is a very strong and effective way of fighting.

    Bruce moved down LA because he was getting started in Hollywood, not because he was scared of the l33t bak siu lum folks, or any kungfu fighter.

    That's the last I think I will say anything about it.

  6. #141
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    I heard years ago that Judo Gene Labell threw BL into a dumpster. I can't verify this since I forgot the source.

  7. #142
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    "why does it matter. It was 50-60 years ago, Bruce is dead and WJM is an old man."

    Ding..Ding..Ding!! What do we have for him Johnny??(ed mcmahons voice in background)

    "I heard years ago that Judo Gene Labell threw BL into a dumpster. I can't verify this since I forgot the source"

    years ago I heard that the late Ip Man was addicted to opium! Then I heard that Mikey from the "hey mikey he likes it" commercial died from mixing pop rocks and soda! Then I heard years ago that Wednesday from the Adams Family did a porno movie..

    and then..

    and then..

  8. #143
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    This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong:

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA3MDExMzk2.html


  9. #144
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    "This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong"

    Um, With the exception of having perhaps 1/3 of Ip Man Wing Chun, JKD is AMERICAN..

    no friend..this is JKD in the current day..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9Rvs

    And here is the source..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I_CyYy7Paw

    and of course..Jesse!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXphvGJoacM

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    "This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong"

    Um, With the exception of having perhaps 1/3 of Ip Man Wing Chun, JKD is AMERICAN..

    no friend..this is JKD in the current day..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9Rvs

    And here is the source..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I_CyYy7Paw

    and of course..Jesse!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXphvGJoacM

    Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html
    Much better, Bruce Chi hands down ! Chinese Kung fu always rulez. Danny Glover was also at WJM match.

  12. #147
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    These were the real reasons why the Chinese martial arts community in San Francisco had it out for him.
    That could be what really happened. I have never regarded Bruce a saint either. Just think about similar thing that happens sometimes in today's society. A guy posts insulting things to you and people you care about in a thugish manner in the Internet, capped it with a challenge "meet me in the gym." But whoever takes it seriously, and attempts to take up the challenge, would the ethics and wisdom of such person be questionable. I would think so.

    This was seen the next day by Grandmaster Ming Lum himself and it was the only injury that could be seen on all of Wong's face or body.
    Really?! Did anyone read the physical examination report for injury on Mr. Wong at the time? Did anyone examine his naked body all over? Well, a fight lost is a lost. No matter, it is marginally lost or being beaten to a pulp. It reminds people be cautious of the outcome before one attempts to challenge others.
    And, in my opinion, the only reason it “went both ways” was because Wong was obviously holding back.
    That is even odd. Wong being a master, should unlikely lose a fight when he had good chance to win, just because he wanted to be Mr. Nice!

    It should have been a great victory for Bruce not an epiphany on how much he sucked and needed to change his style.
    Bruce openly admitted that his skill had room for improvement at the time. That was modesty. And so, Siu Lum Fighter, where is yours.

    The initial post of the thread is similar to one that I have found in the Internet several years ago. They are both from the Master Wong's camp, with this more recent one comes with more detail. I only hope that there will be no more explanation of this, clarification of that anymore. Let the past stays in the past.



    Regards,

    KC
    Hong Kong
    Last edited by SteveLau; 08-24-2012 at 11:48 PM.

  13. #148
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    Posted by LaterthanNever
    "You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didn’t seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are."

    I'm not assuming anything here. I've never met nor spoken with the aforementioned people.
    You are assuming that if you meant it when you said, “Lee won the match.” If that were the case then Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and David Chin are all exaggerating and lying since all of their statements seem to be at odds with that assumption.

    I believe he said "to tell you the truth, I THINK I COULD beat anyone in the world". A bit different.
    That’s still a pretty wild boast. Especially for someone who didn’t go about trying to prove that to the world at all except through action cinema. Don’t get me wrong though. I’ll still acknowledge he had some skills. Not the best martial artist of all time (God that’s so ridiculous) but still pretty good.

    I don't know about the other fight..but Jesse WAS there at the Wong Jack Man match! He told me once after class.
    Jesse Glover – “I wasn't at the (Wong Jack Man) fight but Bruce told me about it.”
    http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/jesseglover.html

    "Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words “I give up”? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so. "

    I don't know. My initial feeling would be that the aforementioned people were friends of Wong Jack Man and hence didn't want to corroborate that he lost? Why does this matter?
    I was really trying to point out that I’ve never read anything that says James Yimm Lee said he heard Wong say “I give up.” If he didn’t hear that then it’s likely Linda never heard that either. She must have heard this from Bruce who, let’s face it, was either delusional when he heard Wong say that or he straight up lied which most BL worshipers refuse to believe even though he ran with a street gang, got kicked out of school, and got into trouble with the cops. I’m from East Oakland and I can tell you people like that sometimes exaggerate.
    Being one of Jesse's students..I will never bad mouth Bruce..I'm sorry! True, he was not perfect..but name one person on earth who is..
    It’s not like I don’t understand what you’re saying here. I’ve trained with some not-so-stand-up guys who I still respected as skilled martial artists. The reason we’re having this debate is because Linda and people like Leo Fong still feel they have to publicly come out and paint Sifu Wong out to be a loser and a racist when that is not the case at all. To be honest, he’s the most talented master I have ever known (and I’ve met some pretty tough guys).
    Then why oh why were the "elders" who I believe were never named always recorded as being miffed and "losing face" because of Bruce teaching the "guai lo"?
    This is why I find these claims so laughable. Because when you actually know people who were directly or indirectly connected with this event it’s so ****ed funny to hear about these "elders" who were p!ssed at Bruce for teaching non-Chinese and such nonsense. What "elders"? Why would they be “losing face” just because Bruce was teaching us "guai lo"? Look man, “Dragon” was complete fantasy. Jerry Poteet even walked off the set because he was disgusted with the whole project. Linda made it seem like there was this official council of old men who appointed Wong to fight Bruce when it was really just a bunch of guys around the same age as Bruce who took him up on his public challenge at the Sun Sing Theatre.
    I'm white too and I was trained by an African American who was taught by Bruce. Your point is? What I don't get is..if these elders were ****ed at Bruce for teaching non chinese? Why didn't they send a chinese of their choosing to issue an ultimatum to kick Wong Jack Man's ass?
    Because that’s a bunch of horse manure. There were no elders p!ssed at Bruce for teaching “guai lo”. If there were they would have been some of the Wing Chun masters in the area since that was what he was teaching and there was a tradition of keeping Wing Chun secret from westerners going back to the Boxer Rebellion. Why would a Northern Shaolin guy care that some guy was teaching a bunch of Americans Wing Chun?? Why would any practitioner from any of the other styles care for that matter?? The Choy Lay Fut guys usually had a rivalry going with the Wing Chun guys, why would they have cared?? Unless it was because they thought guai lo were going to start using Wing Chun against them but they thought their art was superior anyway so I still can’t see them giving a ****.
    He couldn't have felt that WC was completely inferior as whatever he added later on was just that..an ADDITION to WC.
    If you read a description of Jeet Kune Do on bruceleefoundation.com they like to describe it as consisting of boxing and fencing techniques and that’s all. Of course this was because the notes they’re drawing from are only on boxing and fencing. These obviously weren’t the only arts Bruce was into and if you ask me I feel that Inosanto’s eskrima and kali influences are more in keeping with what Bruce was exploring near the end of his life. He obviously must have been interested in some of the stuff Dan was showing him and he uses sticks in Enter The Dragon.
    Most of what I have heard consistently was that Bruce was rather impatient and his "leaving" as people claim was based on this rather than not wanting to be the 'top dog"
    He didn’t close his school in Seattle though. I’m not really saying anything by this but it seems worth noting. Maybe he felt he had attracted too much trouble in the Bay. Just sayin’.
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 08-26-2012 at 01:43 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  14. #149
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    Originally posted by LaterthanNever
    I guess I just don't really understand the relevance of resurrecting a fight which happened over 30 years ago. What is to be gained from all of this? Bragging rights? "proof" that Bruce wasn't what he claimed? Puffery that WC is the best?
    Proof that Wong Jack Man was better?

    It's done fellas!!!
    As long as men like Leo Fong come out and give their opinions of the match in the August issue of Kung Fu Magazine it’s not done. As long as the Bruce Lee Foundation keeps their version of the whole incident posted on their website (http://bruceleefoundation.com/index.cfm/pid/10606) it’s not done. My reputation as a martial artist is affected by these claims that the guy who taught me was prejudiced against white or black people. That suggests that he purposefully didn’t teach us well or purposefully taught us techniques that wouldn’t work. If he was so resentful of us guai lo wouldn’t he teach us stuff that didn’t work?

    Because I know all of their claims to be completely false it really gets to me. The truth is he taught champions. He taught me stuff that I’ve successfully used in real fights.

    And I still can’t get over it, why do people believe that Bruce almost threw out Wing Chun altogether because he didn’t "win fast enough"? Tell me who, in the history of martial arts, has ever done that? The Bruce Lee Foundation people even say in their laughable account of the whole thing that, "…Bruce could’ve taken the easy way out and continued with the classical arts. He could have coasted on his reputation and his victory over Wong J. Man. Instead, he threw out years of wing chun study and dove into researching other martial arts." Really, he could have "coasted on his victory"? Why didn’t he then? Oh, it was because, "He realized that even though he had successfully dispensed with the challenger, the traditional arts were not as effective as he’d wanted them to be in a real situation." That one’s so stupid. It’s not only insulting to all traditionalists but it should be insulting to Bruce Lee himself. Didn’t he use his traditional art effectively in all of those street fights in Hong Kong?
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 08-26-2012 at 01:46 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  15. #150
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    Originally posted by SteveLau
    Bruce openly admitted that his skill had room for improvement at the time. That was modesty. And so, Siu Lum Fighter, where is yours.

    The initial post of the thread is similar to one that I have found in the Internet several years ago. They are both from the Master Wong's camp, with this more recent one comes with more detail. I only hope that there will be no more explanation of this, clarification of that anymore. Let the past stays in the past.
    I guess you could call me a part of Master Wong's camp but I'm actually posting all of this stuff independently. I'm just one of the many hundreds of people who learned from him throughout his career. The opinions I'm expressing have nothing to do with any of the people I trained with (although they might have similar feelings). Wong Sifu never even discussed the match with me at all. I never dared bring it up. Neither Wong Sifu nor any of his students have ever really bothered with these forums and, to be honest, I haven't been involved with his former school or any of his former students for years now. He's long since been retired and my last interaction with him was back in 2005.

    All of the details I've been posting have actually been public for a long time now. I've posted some info from the Michael Dorgan article published in 1980 and David Chin's recent KF Magazine article. Sifu Chin actually didn't add anything new other than that he thought the match was a draw and that he was the one who delivered the challenge letter. Even my opinions on this aren't new. I'm merely rebutting what I read in the Leo Fong article in the August issue of Kung Fu Magazine. Where's his modesty? While Bruce was alive the match with WJM wasn't publicly discussed ever again. It wasn't until Linda Lee published her book and started selling her story to Inside Kung Fu that there was an issue. Where was their modesty?

    And before people start thinking I'm making claims about who's style is better than who's etc. I want to state that I do think Bruce Lee had some real skills. If he was actually able to hold his own against Wong Jack Man then he must have. He wasn't ranked as a sifu in Wing Chun so if he was able to use what he knew to any effect against a respected grandmaster he must have been good. That being said I only wish people would realize that Wong Jack Man was no slouch either and that all of the JKD people publicly bringing the match up in magazines, books, and interviews isn't helping to put this argument to rest.
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 08-26-2012 at 01:51 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

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