Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[Raipizo]

Rwilson, is it your duty to post things angled just to annoy people? It seems like it's all you do.

[RWilson]

Rwilson, is it your duty to post things angled just to annoy people? It seems like it's all you do.

You are annoying me right now so we are even.

[Raipizo]

You are annoying me right now so we are even.

Great now just let me post Kung fu bashing material on a KUNG FU forum and call me Rwilson

[Raipizo]

But what about all these accounts:

"Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[43]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[44] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[45]

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[53]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[54]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[55] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". – Bob Wall[56]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

I heard of some of these but it's still hard to track truth from fact, it's all lost in time.

[Lucas]

This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything. His friends could be lying or embellishing. I said he never sparred with his students. A fight he might have had as a kid does not mean anything for his grown up training.


The picture does not prove he was sparring at that money. Where are the rest of the connecting pictures? He was an actor. Do you really think he would risk his pretty face and NOT wear a helmet? You are just mad that I am right, Lucas.

We all forget Kung Fu actors---esp in that day were not paid for their faces. They got paid for kungfu. In actuality, in all kungfu movies, there is contact made regularly during fight scenes. I got a pretty face and I hate headgear. the actuality is that Bruce wouldn't allow himself to be photographed unless he was looking good at that moment.

Its OK RWilson, you don't need to feel ashamed here of your mental defeciencies. We accept you for who you are.

[David Jamieson]

At one time, back in the day in Scotland, people actually believed that William Wallace was 7 feet tall and had fire for hair and dark black eyes that could kill you with a stare.

I believe the memory of Bruce suffers from the same childlike awe.

In the end, what are any of us eh? Dust.

[Lucas]

are you trying to tell me william wallace's hair wasnt made of fire? I know someone whos sisters husbands half brothers uncle that got burned by that hair.

[Faruq]

But what about all these accounts:

"Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[43]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[44] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[45]

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[53]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[54]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[55] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". – Bob Wall[56]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

But someone needs to correct the part on the wiki page about it being about him teaching Caucasians and not about him being just an all around jerk!

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Did Bruce Lee have his shortcomings? Yes. Along with 95% of everyone else; the other 5% are liars.

Bruce Lee might have been c0cky, but he was young, and I've met a lot of MAists that come across every bit as arrogant as BL was reported to have been. I'm sure BL was a lot of things, but he sure as hell wasn't some Hitler type.

True enough. I too have known a great many martial artists to be arrogant and conceited. Besides this being an aspect of their personal make-up, it’s usually married to some idea that their style is "superior" to all others. One thing that’s always been bothersome to me about Bruce is that he seemed to be extremely critical of all traditional styles while promoting Jeet Kune Do as new and groundbreaking. Of course when you look at what JKD has become, it even more seems to be a philosophy and not a martial art "style" in the strict sense of the word. It seems so ironic to me that so many traditionalists revere him so much. It’s especially baffling to me why Wing Chun guys love him. He said WC was "insufficient". I don’t get it, why is he such a hero to you guys? He even rubbed Yip Man the wrong way when he tried filming him one time. He should be acknowledged as a non-traditionalist and not really a Wing Chun guy at all if you ask me. Wing Chun eventually became just one of the styles he liked training with and he totally stopped using it for a while after the WJM fight. I guess that won’t stop Bruce being glorified in the new Yip Man movie. I’ve actually liked the Yip Man movie franchise. They should reconsider painting the WJM battle out to be so one-sided like it's been in every other laughable BL bio (they've all sucked). It's been said that Bruce's match with WJM was responsible for the creation of JKD so why not give credit where credit is due?

Originally posted by TenTigers
as far as him being a fighter, students of his also said that he was a fighter.
The ones who said he wasn't, were guys like Joe Lewis, who learned from BL, then never gave him credit so he can continue to do his seminars and make monies.

Joe said that Bruce set him up and asked him to throw a punch at him so Bruce could counter with some technique. After the third try Bruce countered Joe's punch and popped him in the face. All of a sudden Bruce’s students were running around saying Bruce beat Joe in a sparring match. Joe said that he wanted it to be known that he never sparred Bruce Lee and he said, "Now here, this guy's never competed, never been to a swim meet, we've never seen him really swim." He also didn’t like how Bruce wanted to use him as a Caucasian punching bag in "Way of The Dragon". I really feel Joe Lewis had more guts and talent than most of Bruce’s students and he stood on his own as a talented fighter. It was inevitable they were going to butt heads. I do think Bruce could fight though and he had the speed and power to make some really tough guys give him some respect. So I really don’t think everyone should be going on like he totally sucked. If I make it sound like that I guess it’s because I’m extremely annoyed at how he’s always painted out to be "THE GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST OF ALL TIME!" A ridiculous notion and one of the reasons Black Belt Magazine sucks eggs.

[Matt_WCK]

It’s especially baffling to me why Wing Chun guys love him. He said WC was "insufficient". I don’t get it, why is he such a hero to you guys? He even rubbed Yip Man the wrong way when he tried filming him one time. He should be acknowledged as a non-traditionalist and not really a Wing Chun guy at all if you ask me. Wing Chun eventually became just one of the styles he liked training with and he totally stopped using it for a while after the WJM fight. .

It's well known that Bruce Lee didn't learn the complete Wing Chun system - in fact he only really learned the basics and some of the dummy work. He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused. If you look at 'JKD Dummy form' it is just the first half of the Wing Chun form. It was this lack of a complete system that drove him to augment from other systems. Ip Chun infered that Bruce Lee created JKD because he would never be a Wing Chun grandmaster and couldn't abide not being the top man.

Bruce Lee is famous for his 'classical mess' expression but he said that after he had already had a classical education. He could eschew forms and the like in favour of more flowing drills because he ALREADY had the fundamentals that the forms and foundation training gave him - something he didn't pass onto his JKD students (their fundamentals came from their own styles).

As for the WJM fight, I've heard varying accounts, as has everyone, but one thing is for sure - it forced Bruce Lee to change his training and that wouldn't happen if he'd won easily. It may have been done to his limited knowledge of Wing Chun but who knows. Any accounts will be biased in favour of the author so cannot be relied upon.

Anyway, Bruce Lee was an actor. Arrogance is a given, usually but equally - they are also driven to succeed as competition is tough.

As for JKD, and this comes from experience training in it as well as Wing Chun, it really isn't a 'style' - more of a set of concepts tied to the techniques of the instructor so the flavour of JKD really varies greatly depending on the background of the instructor - the school I trained in was all boxing/kickboxing with some Kali thrown in. Very little Wing Chun (aside from some of the terminology) survived. JKD was fun but (to me at least) it felt like a bunch of random techniques and drills stitched together.

While I enjoy his films and appreciate his obvious martial arts skills, I don't see him as a Wing Chun man and, in many ways, he was indirectly responsible for many dodgey kung fu schools opening in the 70s teaching the public what they wanted to learn.

Incidentally, when I first started learning Wing Chun, I had no idea that it was Lee's 'mother art' - I chose it for the simple, economical movements and short range power generation as well as being intriguiged by 'blind' fighting. Many cling to the Bruce Lee/Wing Chun connection - possibly due to the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' mentality... a famous connection is still a famous connection.

Ultimately - everyone is entitled to an opinion and, since he has been dead for 40 years, I very much doubt that this argument will go anywhere but round and round in circles.

[RWilson]

It's well known that Bruce Lee didn't learn the complete Wing Chun system - in fact he only really learned the basics and some of the dummy work. He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused. If you look at 'JKD Dummy form' it is just the first half of the Wing Chun form. It was this lack of a complete system that drove him to augment from other systems. Ip Chun infered that Bruce Lee created JKD because he would never be a Wing Chun grandmaster and couldn't abide not being the top man.

Bruce Lee is famous for his 'classical mess' expression but he said that after he had already had a classical education. He could eschew forms and the like in favour of more flowing drills because he ALREADY had the fundamentals that the forms and foundation training gave him - something he didn't pass onto his JKD students (their fundamentals came from their own styles).

As for the WJM fight, I've heard varying accounts, as has everyone, but one thing is for sure - it forced Bruce Lee to change his training and that wouldn't happen if he'd won easily. It may have been done to his limited knowledge of Wing Chun but who knows. Any accounts will be biased in favour of the author so cannot be relied upon.

Anyway, Bruce Lee was an actor. Arrogance is a given, usually but equally - they are also driven to succeed as competition is tough.

As for JKD, and this comes from experience training in it as well as Wing Chun, it really isn't a 'style' - more of a set of concepts tied to the techniques of the instructor so the flavour of JKD really varies greatly depending on the background of the instructor - the school I trained in was all boxing/kickboxing with some Kali thrown in. Very little Wing Chun (aside from some of the terminology) survived. JKD was fun but (to me at least) it felt like a bunch of random techniques and drills stitched together.

While I enjoy his films and appreciate his obvious martial arts skills, I don't see him as a Wing Chun man and, in many ways, he was indirectly responsible for many dodgey kung fu schools opening in the 70s teaching the public what they wanted to learn.

Incidentally, when I first started learning Wing Chun, I had no idea that it was Lee's 'mother art' - I chose it for the simple, economical movements and short range power generation as well as being intriguiged by 'blind' fighting. Many cling to the Bruce Lee/Wing Chun connection - possibly due to the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' mentality... a famous connection is still a famous connection.

Ultimately - everyone is entitled to an opinion and, since he has been dead for 40 years, I very much doubt that this argument will go anywhere but round and round in circles.

Had he learns the rest of the hand forms and the magical wooden dummy form he still would have sucked because fighting makes you better at fighting. He probably wanted to know the system proper, and have his teacher's blessing, so he cold have a chinese guy and an established system to pad his Resume when he came to America.

[Matt_WCK]

Had he learns the rest of the hand forms and the magical wooden dummy form he still would have sucked because fighting makes you better at fighting. He probably wanted to know the system proper, and have his teacher's blessing, so he cold have a chinese guy and an established system to pad his Resume when he came to America.

That was actually Bruce Lee's point - fighting makes you better at fighting. It was one of the reasons he moved away from 'classical' kung fu into MMA (which is basically what he did). As for learning the rest of the system - if you only learned 1/3 of the controls of a car and tried to drive you'll probably crash. It's actually a testiment to his skills that he could prove to be a fight for WJM with the little he knew.

[LaterthanNever]

"He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused"

Supposedly, Ip decided to teach Bruce privately because he(Ip) felt Lee was one of the more talented students and took a liking to him.

[LaterthanNever]

Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

"James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had. "

Well lets look at some probability for a sec here. The odds of getting hit at least once in a fight are statistically against you(I don't care how good you are). And a well placed shot to the jaw can drop almost anyone. Look at Mike Tyson. Certainly no slouch in the knocking people out department..yet he was also knocked out. I don't know what your motive is here for saying that.

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47"

10 seconds or 11 seconds..does it matter? I trained under Jesse for a time and have met Taky(at Jesses' funeral). I've also met Linda (Lee). None of them seemed like people who would exaggerate.

"Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]"

Would it matter if it was 3 minutes vs. 25 minutes?(I'm skeptical about the 25 minute claim. Most fights don't last that long). Lee won the match.

"Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians."

Remember..when you are dead..it's usually for a very long time
Last I checked..Bruce isn't going to reanimate and climb out of the grave to rebut the claim


"This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything."

I have not gotten that vibe in meeting Linda at all(dishonesty). It must feel good to be a troll from the safety of your laptop ------- miles away from Seattle.(where he is buried). And "if"? If grandma had b-lls..she'd be grandpa!


" His friends could be lying or embellishing."

As could Wong Jack Man or just about anyone!


"I said he never sparred with his students."

Not so

[jdhowland]

Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

"James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had. "

I don't know what your motive is here for saying that.

My motive was simply to add to the dialogue by showing that Lee did spar. The info was from a friend and student who sparred with him. Lee apparently felt a weakness and did something to overcome it. No badmouthing.