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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Okay I emailed Leo. Hopefully he will bring me up to speed and tell me what he remembers. Or not ? LOL some don't write back.
    "
    No reply yet. He probably wont. More important things in his life than this. "But if I had a camera in his face." Hint to anyone that lives near him.

  2. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Getting back to Bruce Lee never sparred anyone. Again it is simply bullcrap that all of a sudden people believe the story. Tell it long enough and that's the new truth. Just ask Emil Farkas ( him still being alive and having witnessed) about what happened to Champion Joe Lewis's legs when he was( not ) sparring Bruce Lee.

    Ask George Dillman ( I know well he was once a top competitor and rather good across the board ) about Lee never sparring him and kicking all over the place. George knows about and also witnessed much concerning Lee. I know, Karate guys. Well those were the people accepting Bruce since he upset the local Chinese community. Don't ask Chuck. He does not tell the complete truth.

    Again the point being is he was respected by the fighting community of that day. Regardless what was said after his death with Joe saying we never sparred, lmfao, wait, we did spar and I got popped. Bruce would glove up with anyone. He had a great disdain for tag but he understood that game probably better than most and would you not suspect Lewis and Stone and Norris went to Bruce because he was talking about how I can touch you without proving it ? Believe what you want but Bruce touched those guys a lot and hard. Playing their game with them and his evolving game at least with Lewis.
    I've never heard anyone say he never sparred. But other than wong jack man, there is no evidence of actual fights, street, full contact, etc. - that I have heard several times.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

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  3. #573

    A Second Trip?

    Greetings,

    While most historians acknowledge that Bruce learned from Shiu Hon Sang before coming to America, forum member Sil Lum Fighter contributed that Bruce Lee sought instruction from Shiu Hon Sang after his fight with WJM. Unfortunately,Sil Lum Fighter shared that Bruce Lee learned forms that did not differ from those Bruce supposedly learned Before he left Hong Kong. The only possible evidence of a second trip came from Dan Inosanto. When he discussing the forms that Bruce taught in his curriculum he mentioned "Tom Toy" (Tan Tui). Shiu Hon Sang never mentioned teaching him that nor did he ever say that Bruce came back for more instruction.

    mickey

  4. #574
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    The guy in this video here (Hung Sing Kwoon SF) is the person who blocked all of bruce lee's punches on stage in a theater in SF.

    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  5. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    I've never heard anyone say he never sparred. But other than wong jack man, there is no evidence of actual fights, street, full contact, etc. - that I have heard several times.
    Joe himself had stated that numerous times that he never sparred him over the years of course then he says different at other times. I believe Joe once stated never had a street fight in his life. So is Joe someone to dismiss unless he speaks of point or full contact karate ?

    Well you can ask Danny Inosanto but it is doubtful he will talk about it anymore but you never know ? Jesse Glover is dead now but he wrote and spoke about it.
    One the Japanese karate guy.

    Nope. He did not compete. Did Wong Jack Man ? Yip Man ? Ed Parker ? Heck I could list likely hundreds of guys considered great that never competed. World class street fighters or masters that for all intent purpose did nothing but teach. Wait, someone saw Yip Man knock a guy out. Well I say bull****! Someone was (actually a few) were there when Parker locks his doors and beat the shiyte out of a guy that came in causing trouble. Ya Right , he was fat oldman with white hair. A few witnessed Wong Jack Man fight Bruce Lee but I think it was made up to sell a movie that's coming out soon ! Jesse said. Danny said. They all lying. Yip man was a chain smoker who weighed 95lbs. Hmm ? Deadly huh ? He could not have had any real skills. WJM was all of 125 for the BL fight. Maybe someone should have dragged those 2 hungry kids into a biker bar and schooled them ? Would either have lasted a minute in a local boxing gym ? It all just gets silly as f--ck when we look at it from all concoevable angles and drop all bias. Really Yip Man was a skinny chain smoker heroin junkie or opium or whatever. Master Yip. Bet him and I get along great. Ill give him some vics and he gives me some opium. Hell yes Ill smoke up with Yip. Sit around chain smoking and sipping tea and complaining how BL makes WC look bad. Possibly lost to some Man kid who may be related to me someplace down the line. Aint that a kick in the ass.

    By the way I have as much respect and admiration for WJM as BL. I know more of BL. I want to know as much TRUTH as possible. Regardless if it make Bruce or Wong look bad or good. Truth. Mostly we get educated guesses. Thats likely as good as it will ever be.

    Anyway, you guys see this yet ?

  6. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    The guy in this video here (Hung Sing Kwoon SF) is the person who blocked all of bruce lee's punches on stage in a theater in SF.

    Thanks a lot for posting that, Frank!

  7. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Thanks a lot for posting that, Frank!
    That was a nice clip. Compass and Square too. Jacques boy here.

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    While most historians acknowledge that Bruce learned from Shiu Hon Sang before coming to America, forum member Sil Lum Fighter contributed that Bruce Lee sought instruction from Shiu Hon Sang after his fight with WJM. Unfortunately,Sil Lum Fighter shared that Bruce Lee learned forms that did not differ from those Bruce supposedly learned Before he left Hong Kong. The only possible evidence of a second trip came from Dan Inosanto. When he discussing the forms that Bruce taught in his curriculum he mentioned "Tom Toy" (Tan Tui). Shiu Hon Sang never mentioned teaching him that nor did he ever say that Bruce came back for more instruction.

    mickey
    The BL/WJM fight was in 1964.

    Hawkins Cheung said he saw Lee back in HK 1964.

    I returned to Hong Kong in 1964. One day, as I was ready to drive my car out of my parking space in the street, I saw someone toward my left window. I couldn’t see this person’s face. I thought that this person was loocking for trouble, and I opened the car door ready to fight. I then saw it was Bruce. I was so happy to see him, and just as I was about to say “Hello!” he said’ “Hawkins, stand here, I have something to show you.” Bruce stepped back two steps and suddenly charged in very quickly. I was surprised that his movement was so fast.

    Another surprise was that Bruce’s character hadn’t changed at all. He still wanted to be top dog. He still wanted to show off. If he liked you, he would always tell you what was on his mind.

    [...]

    I asked him how he developed the ability to close in that quickly. He said’ “Look, Hawkins, in the United States you don’t have any good training partners to practice wing chun with. You can say that my wing chun is better than any so called wing chun masters there. I can’t go any further. But I have had a lot of challenge fights. My opponents are fast, so I have to be faster; they’re strong, so I have to he stronger than them. There’s no other way, because in the U.S., I’m a ‘gung-fu’ guy. Because my wing chun is limited and my structure can’t hold up against larger opponents, I have to use no way as the way, no limitation as the limitation.”

    [...]

    Bruce continued: “I have to train very hard to beat my opponents. So I’ve come back to further my training in wing chun, and I hope to learn more of the dummy techniques from the old man (Yip Man). Hopefully, sifu will let me film him on 8mm so that I may show my students in the U.S.” Bruce said his acting career was beginning to take off. “By the way,” he noted, “I just signed a contract with 20th Century Fox to do a ‘Charlie Chan’ movie (it later turned out to be the “Green Hornet” series). I’m on my way to see the old man now.” I knew that when he wanted to accomplish a task, I’d better not get in his way, so I left.

    A few days later, Bruce gave a demonstration on a popular talk show on television. Bruce didn’t mention anything about wing chun, but referred to his art simply as “gung-fu.” I realized that something must have happened between Bruce and Yip Man. I knew Bruce’s character, and when he desired or wanted something accomplished, no one could stop him. If not, Bruce would go out on his own to get the job done. Bruce would then come back and show you and try to embarrass you.

    I found out that the “old man” refused his request to be filmed doing the dummy set. I knew that the “old man” was very Chinese tradition minded and that Bruce was very direct and Western in his thinking. Bruce wanted to learn everything overnight, but the ‘old man” felt you had to train to get it. Later on, I found that Bruce formed his own method and called it ‘jeet kune do.”
    So Lee specifically went back to HK trying to find a way to make up for his limitations. And he talked about other people being fast.

    Interesting that Lee was concerned about speed, and the first thing he showed HC was his new closing/intercepting footwork. That would have been a key piece if he is concerned about fighting Northern systems.

    Northern leg, Southern fist. Northern leg is not just kicking. It is even more so about footwork, mobility, and being able to overrun your opponent.

    Considering Northern footwork, I've always had the opinion that WJM didn't want to hurt Lee, and tried to stay just out of range, which frustrated Lee because he didn't have the mobility needed to deal with Northern footwork.

    And you don't need Tan Tui to develop Northern style closing ability. You can learn enough in 15 minutes. But you have to train it 10,000 times to be able to use it. The way most people do Tan Tui wouldn't help anyway.

  9. #579
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    Sounds like Lee picked up some footwork pointers.

    More likely it was from Shiu than from Yip Man.

  10. #580
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    If my student came back to me after mouthing off and getting into challenge matches, and asked to film some forms/techniques, I'd tell him to GTFO too.

  11. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    So Lee specifically went back to HK trying to find a way to make up for his limitations. And he talked about other people being fast.

    Interesting that Lee was concerned about speed, and the first thing he showed HC was his new closing/intercepting footwork. That would have been a key piece if he is concerned about fighting Northern systems.

    Northern leg, Southern fist. Northern leg is not just kicking. It is even more so about footwork, mobility, and being able to overrun your opponent.

    Considering Northern footwork, I've always had the opinion that WJM didn't want to hurt Lee, and tried to stay just out of range, which frustrated Lee because he didn't have the mobility needed to deal with Northern footwork.

    And you don't need Tan Tui to develop Northern style closing ability. You can learn enough in 15 minutes. But you have to train it 10,000 times to be able to use it. The way most people do Tan Tui wouldn't help anyway.
    Good points.

    One of the things that makes a style like CLF great (for example), is that, although it's a southern style, it's a combination of both northern and southern KF. And yes, limiting "Northern Leg" to kicking is a BIG oversimplification. There is footwork not only in moving in/out/to the side, but also the way the legs are used during throwing. BL would definitely not have gotten that from Ip Man.

    Personally, I don't really care for the "Southern Fist, Northern Leg" phrase. I prefer to think of application of KF as using the entire body as a unit, as opposed to mentally compartmentalizing different aspects. When the latter occurs, it's easy to over-kick during sparring/fighting, when it's not appropriate, or to likewise only punch when combining various skills would work better.

    BL was influenced a lot by western fencing in his footwork.

    Funny that Hawkins Cheung says that he and BL wanted to learn N. Shaolin just for 'flash'. The fact is, if you are well-trained and have a deep understanding of what you're doing, ANY system can be made effective, not just WC. Their mentality at the time showed how young they were.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 10-27-2016 at 07:14 PM.

  12. #582
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    bruce lee obviously lost in some way because he quit wing chun after the fight and he kept trying to get people to teach him dynamic northern systems

    its obv he got salty and got shunned from kung fu community and he tried to recreate northern dynamic system with savate boxing and fencing
    Last edited by bawang; 10-27-2016 at 08:41 PM.

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  13. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Good points.

    One of the things that makes a style like CLF great (for example), is that, although it's a southern style, it's a combination of both northern and southern KF. And yes, limiting "Northern Leg" to kicking is a BIG oversimplification. There is footwork not only in moving in/out/to the side, but also the way the legs are used during throwing. BL would definitely not have gotten that from Ip Man.

    Personally, I don't really care for the "Southern Fist, Northern Leg" phrase. I prefer to think of application of KF as using the entire body as a unit, as opposed to mentally compartmentalizing different aspects. When the latter occurs, it's easy to over-kick during sparring/fighting, when it's not appropriate, or to likewise only punch when combining various skills would work better.

    BL was influenced a lot by western fencing in his footwork.

    Funny that Hawkins Cheung says that he and BL wanted to learn N. Shaolin just for 'flash'. The fact is, if you are well-trained and have a deep understanding of what you're doing, ANY system can be made effective, not just WC. Their mentality at the time showed how young they were.
    northern systems come from 20 provinces. southern systems come from 3. american southern kung fu come from one city.
    north south dichotomy in kung fu refers to jiangsu province. jiangsu longfist likes punching. below jiangsu nobody trained any martial arts.
    Last edited by bawang; 10-27-2016 at 09:16 PM.

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  14. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    The BL/WJM fight was in 1964.

    Hawkins Cheung said he saw Lee back in HK 1964.
    Sorry. Just saw that I didn't post the link.

    http://hawkinscheung.com/wp/about/

    Interview was published in IKF in 1991.

  15. #585
    Greetings,

    -N-, I dod not realize the link had more than one page. I read the rest a couple of days ago. There was a second trip. There could have been more.

    There is the possibility of 8 mm footage of Shiu Hon Sang at the Lee Estate. The footwork that Bruce demonstrated to Hawkins Cheung gives more insight to the fight. WJM was not running all over the place. He was using stepping, shifting and dodging, defensive methods associated with the Northern styles. Those unfamiliar with such methods may have viewed WJM as running away. Bruce may have gassed out from hitting so much air, something that affects boxers as well.

    There was no win or loss with the BL/WJM fight. There was only one thing: BRUCE LEE FAILED. He failed to destroy his opponent and achieve fame and a stream of students as a result of so. Giving the aforementioned good thought, I gained an understanding that was both karmic and diabolical: Bruce was willing to kill in order to achieve fame and fortune; and, when fame and fortune was finally about to come his way, he dies.


    mickey
    Last edited by mickey; 10-30-2016 at 11:08 AM.

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