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Thread: Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

  1. #151
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    "You are assuming that if you meant it when you said, “Lee won the match.” If that were the case then Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and David Chin are all exaggerating and lying since all of their statements seem to be at odds with that assumption."

    Then where is the statement which you claim Master Wong Jack Man came out with?(in printed form)..or was it wanted to release? Would it really matter even if Bruce LOST the match? Both men were skilled fighters. I would not want to have gone toe to toe with either man in their prime

    "That’s still a pretty wild boast. Especially for someone who didn’t go about trying to prove that to the world at all except through action cinema."

    Boasting is not germane only to Bruce. Ever read some of the quotes Muhammed Ali spouted off? And yeah..Ali lost a few fights too. Does it mean that he didn't believe that he could still beat anyone? His BELIEF propelled him to win many boxing matching which he may have otherwise lost. Incidentally, Lee was quoted as saying that even though he was a big fan or Ali and held a goal of wanting to fight him in the ring..that he was not ready beacuse he felt Ali would "take my head clean off"(if he fought according to Boxing rules). That sure doesn't seem like an Ego run amok does it?



    "Don’t get me wrong though. I’ll still acknowledge he had some skills. Not the best martial artist of all time (God that’s so ridiculous) but still pretty good."

    Is it any less different than a high level Wing Chun master saying he is the "10th level of all holiness", Professor, Doctor,etc.etc.? What's next? OBE(Order of the British Empire)? And best of all time? This is something that came posthumously for Bruce(largely by the media and his fans). I'm sure some people think that Superman was the greatest of all time and some think it's Batman and some think it's Spiderman.


    "Jesse Glover – “I wasn't at the (Wong Jack Man) fight but Bruce told me about it.”
    http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/jesseglover.html"

    Touche. I concede. I was pretty winded after class. He did tell me that he was at a fight which recieved some publicity which did not go over 30 seconds.



    "I was really trying to point out that I’ve never read anything that says James Yimm Lee said he heard Wong say “I give up.” If he didn’t hear that then it’s likely Linda never heard that either. She must have heard this from Bruce who, let’s face it, was either delusional when he heard Wong say that or he straight up lied which most BL worshipers refuse to believe even though he ran with a street gang, got kicked out of school, and got into trouble with the cops. I’m from East Oakland and I can tell you people like that sometimes exaggerate."

    People exaggerate worldwide friend..not just east Oakland


    "It’s not like I don’t understand what you’re saying here. I’ve trained with some not-so-stand up guys who I still respected as skilled martial artists. The reason we’re having this debate is because Linda and people like Leo Fong still feel they have to publicly come out and paint Sifu Wong out to be a loser and a racist when that is not the case at all. To be honest, he’s the most talented master I have ever known (and I’ve met some pretty tough guys)."

    Please cite your sources. And a racist? Lee and Wong were BOTH Chinese! I don't see how this could be!? And if there were no "elders" who voted to have Master Wong Jack Man pound a bump on Bruces' noggin..then I don't get why the fight took place in the first place?

    " What "elders"? "

    Be it in print, video or spunned yarns, this is the story the general public hears again and again and again ad nauseum..that there were several chinatown "elite" who didn't jive w/ the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. I never said I believed it..I'm just saying what I've heard.


    "Why would they be “losing face” just because Bruce was teaching us "guai lo"? "

    I never said I agreed or that it was logical did I? I think in terms of "why SHOULD they be losing face?". The Chinese culture doesn't have an issue w/ whites, blacks, or latinos learning acupuncture and herbs and opening up a practice..so why should learning kung fu be different?

    "Look man, “Dragon” was complete fantasy. "

    Of course it was! Jesse told us over dinner at a local restaurant after training once that he didn't want his actual name used(so the studio execs used "Jerome Sprout"). Honestly..I didn't care for the movie much. I probably wouldn't have wanted my actual name to be used either.



    "Jerry Poteet even walked off the set because he was disgusted with the whole project. Linda made it seem like there was this official council of old men who appointed Wong to fight Bruce when it was really just a bunch of guys around the same age as Bruce who took him up on his public challenge at the Sun Sing Theatre."

    See above..I don't know. Studio execs in Hollywood get bored and are concerned w/ the bottom line..they want money and by spicing things up a bit..that's how the get top dollar.


    "Because that’s a bunch of horse manure. There were no elders p!ssed at Bruce for teaching “guai lo”. If there were they would have been some of the Wing Chun masters in the area since that was what he was teaching and there was a tradition of keeping Wing Chun secret from westerners going back to the Boxer Rebellion."

    My understanding is that back in the day..NO STYLE of kung fu was permitted to be taught to non chinese..not just wing chun.


    "Why would a Northern Shaolin guy care that some guy was teaching a bunch of Americans Wing Chun??"

    Agreed. Which is why I don't get why Master Wong fought Bruce at all?



    "If you read a description of Jeet Kune Do on bruceleefoundation.com they like to describe it as consisting of boxing and fencing techniques and that’s all."

    Not when I read Tao of Jeet Kune Do. And what I learned from Jesse had some of the Lap Sao, Bong Sao, Tan Sao, Fuk Sao just like WC. But after that..the rules changed..


    " These obviously weren’t the only arts Bruce was into and if you ask me I feel that Inosanto’s eskrima and kali influences are more in keeping with what Bruce was exploring near the end of his life. He obviously must have been interested in some of the stuff Dan was showing him and he uses sticks in Enter The Dragon."

    Perhaps. I have never met Guro Inosanto. I would like to one day. Some insist that the silat, and other southeast asian MA came after Bruces' death. My instinct tells me that Bruce would have learned/incorporated those too.


    "He didn’t close his school in Seattle though. I’m not really saying anything by this but it seems worth noting. Maybe he felt he had attracted too much trouble in the Bay. Just sayin’. "

    Seattle was the first school..not Oakland as it's frequently written. The location in the U-District on University Way(near the University of Washington) was actually the 3rd spot it was located to in Seattle.
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  2. #152
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    "Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html "

    That's ok young man..your videos contained no Jeet Kune Do!!
    And the duan system? That was instituded by the Chinese govermnent. An example of a high level dual was Grandmaster Feng Zhiqiang..9TH duan who recently passed away..

    Palm Striker..

    Danny Glover? Really? So the guy in Lethal Weapon w/ Mel Gibson was at the Wong Jack Man fight? Coolness!! Wait till I tell the guys!
    Last edited by LaterthanNever; 08-25-2012 at 02:28 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #153
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  4. #154
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    "Dragon" was terrible, and the only notable thing to watch about that movie is Sifu Jerry's choreography. When I asked him and his wife about the movie, Sifu Fran rolled her eyes, and Sifu Jerry changed the subject.

    JKD the way I learned it, is modified Wing Chun, modified boxing, and modified fencing. All of my teachers, however, are from the LA Chinatown era, and therefore contain less wing chun in it.

  5. #155
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    I don't have a stake in this discussion, but I do think it is significant that the recounting of the incident makes Wong jack man and David chin look like racists. I never really thought of it that way before.

    To me, that's a higher charge vs. Who won or not.
    The 10 Elements of Choy Lay Fut:
    Kum, Na, Gwa, Sau, Chop, Pow, Kup, Biu, Ding, Jong

    The 13 Principles of Taijiquan:
    Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pluck, Elbow, Shoulder, Split, Forward, Back, Left, Right, Central Equilibrium

    And it doesn't hurt to practice stuff from:
    Mounts, Guards, and Side Mounts!


    Austin Kung-Fu Academy

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    ..........

  7. #157
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    Bruce Lee the Barbarian....thats badass lol
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  8. #158
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    Here is a clip from one of the "famous" rooftop fights that Lee competed in as a "gang member" as some have labeled him. The clip says that it is from the Lee video collection, but I have never seen any actual documented proof that it is or isn't. But, it IS a video from the time period in which Lee would have done the same thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXtQogCNh4

    I have the feeling the Lee vs. WJM fight was probably very similar.

    Reading between the lines, I would say that the fight had no clear cut winner. It was good publicity for Lee to say it was about racism, but there were several schools in the SF area that taught (openly) all people. Those that knew Lee all agreed that he was ****y and athletic.

    Judo Gene LeBell and Ed Parker both said that while Lee was very athletic and could pick up movement VERY quickly, his knowledge wasn't very deep. BL exchanged ideas with both LeBell and Parker, but you wouldn't say that Lee was their student. This is the same case with Joe Lewis, he exchanged ideas with Lee and then Lee went around telling people that Lewis was his student/trained him.

    Bruce Lee died VERY young without alot of years of training. We can only speculate how he would have matured as both a person and as a martial artist. BL was a great mouthpiece for ideas that were floating around at the time to spread them and get them more accepted by the MA community.
    "God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin73 View Post
    This is the same case with Joe Lewis, he exchanged ideas with Lee and then Lee went around telling people that Lewis was his student/trained him.
    well, considering that Joe Lewis has been doing articles and seminars on JKD techniques as taught to him by Bruce Lee, I guess you might surmise that he was in fact Lee's student.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  10. #160
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    also-those rooftop fights don't actually show Bruce Lee in any of them.
    So, sure we can say that Bruce Lee's rooftop fights were of the same quality..but we don't know this for sure, so it's simply speculation.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  11. #161
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    All of my roof top fights end with me kissing cat woman and telling robin to gtfo of my personal space...
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    also-those rooftop fights don't actually show Bruce Lee in any of them.
    So, sure we can say that Bruce Lee's rooftop fights were of the same quality..but we don't know this for sure, so it's simply speculation.
    This is very true, in fact I may be mistaken but that might be a video William Cheung fighting, but I'm not sure about that.

  13. #163
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    "but I do think it is significant that the recounting of the incident makes Wong jack man and David chin look like racists."

    I've got to be honest here...I read EVERY WORD of that article from the JKDfoundation and I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that anyone in Bruces' inner circle thought that WJM was a racist..

    Actually there was scant mention of WJM at all in the article by name except mentioning his name a couple of times!

  14. #164
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    Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do





    What is Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do?

    In one of Bruce Lee’s spots on the television show Longstreet, James Franciscus asks Bruce Lee, “What do you call this thing you do?” Bruce goes on to explain that the name he has given to his own approach to the martial arts is Jeet Kune Do. Translated from Cantonese, jeet means “intercepting” or “stopping. Kune means “fist“, and do is “the way.” In English then, Jeet Kune Do is “The Way of the Intercepting Fist.”

    Over the years, there has been much debate over the name Jeet Kune Do. Is it a style or a philosophy? Is it based on Eastern or Western martial arts? Bruce Lee himself was quoted as saying “it’s only a name.” But, of course, he had to have some way of referring to the techniques and strategies he was using.

    The story of how he came to develop those techniques starts in 1964 when Bruce was teaching the traditional Chinese martial art of wing chun at his school in Oakland, California. Bay Area kung fu instructors, unhappy that Bruce was teaching non-Chinese students, sent Wong J. Man from Hong Kong to Oakland with an ultimatum: close the school or throw down. The challenge, of course, was met right there on the spot, and the two faced off, but a fight that Bruce felt should have been over much sooner lasted an excruciating three minutes. He realized that even though he had successfully dispensed with the challenger, the traditional arts were not as effective as he’d wanted them to be in a real situation.

    At this point, Bruce could’ve taken the easy way out and continued with the classical arts. He could have coasted on his reputation and his victory over Wong J. Man. Instead, he threw out years of wing chun study and dove into researching other martial arts. He read thousands of books on various fighting systems, but the majority of books in his personal library were either fencing or boxing titles. These are the volumes that were most heavily underlined and annotated by Bruce. These are the arts that were most subject to his scrutiny. And these western arts form the foundation of Jeet Kune Do.


    While Bruce Lee analyzed many fighting styles, this does not mean he incorporated all of them into his arsenal. Which brings us back to the James Franciscus question: “What do you call this thing you do?” Arguments of whether or not JKD is a style aside, Jeet Kune Do is the name that Bruce Lee gave to the fighting techniques and strategies he was developing and employing. It was what he was doing—how he was most efficiently using arms, legs, body weight, tactics, and the laws of physics—to fight. True, there are philosophical principles that guide the physical side of JKD, but we must never forget that JKD is about doing, about action—very specific action.

    That action is comprised of the JKD techniques developed by Bruce Lee himself. Contrary to common misconception, Bruce Lee did not merely take techniques from various arts and throw them together. He studied and tested very specific elements, and essentially, these were elements from only two arts—Western fencing and boxing. Jeet Kune Do’s stance, footwork, and major strategic points come from fencing. A key principle in fencing, the stop-hit, is essentially the JKD namesake—the way of the intercepting fist. The idea that you can set up your opponent so that you will be able to intercept him in his most vulnerable state—on the attack—is central to the work of fencing authors Aldo Nadi and Julio Martinez Castello, both of whom are quoted heavily in Bruce Lee’s Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

    For body mechanics and maximum generation of power, Bruce turned to boxers Edwin Haislet, Jack Dempsey, and Jim Dricsoll. Again, all three are heavily quoted in Bruce’s writings. JKD’s vertical-fist jab, proper alignment, striking surface, hip rotation, and kinetic chain sequence all come from boxing.

    Even with the heavy influence of both sports, however, it’s important to note that JKD is neither fencing nor boxing. To technically explain this would be beyond the scope of this article, but it’s important to remember that Bruce never lifted techniques wholesale from other arts for the sake of accumulating new techniques. Each weapon was subject to scientific analysis, modified, and tested in fighting situations.

    For our modern day purposes, Jeet Kune Do is the name we now use to describe those techniques and strategies that Bruce Lee developed and more important, employed, over his lifetime. Of course, he would have continued to improve on the JKD arsenal, modifying certain things, discarding others. But that is not for us to decide. As a further delineation and for historical purposes, to preserve Bruce Lee’s art and the contributions he made to the fighting arts, those techniques that originated from the source—Bruce Lee—now fall under the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do name.
    It doesn't even imply WJM as racist, just that "Bay Area kung fu instructors" sent him. They could have told WJM anything to challenge Bruce Lee.

  15. #165
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    "You must not teach our secrets to the Gwai Lo!"

    seems like this very recounting is why lots of Kung-Fu people know what Gwai Lo means in the first place?

    The fact that WJM is associated with any of it makes it seem like he's associated w/their beliefs, as opposed to just being an attack dog?

    I dunno. I never thought of the racial connection myself, so maybe others don't either. But it looks like the association is there when pointed to it.

    If in all these years, no one has ever confronted WJM as someone who denied training to "Gwai Lo", then it is a non-issue.

    But if he had to deal with people saying to him, "How could you deny training to someone based on the color of their skin?!" then I think he is right to rebut the incident recount as a mischaracterization of his practices and ethics.

    Someone's playing the race card, just not sure who!
    The 10 Elements of Choy Lay Fut:
    Kum, Na, Gwa, Sau, Chop, Pow, Kup, Biu, Ding, Jong

    The 13 Principles of Taijiquan:
    Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pluck, Elbow, Shoulder, Split, Forward, Back, Left, Right, Central Equilibrium

    And it doesn't hurt to practice stuff from:
    Mounts, Guards, and Side Mounts!


    Austin Kung-Fu Academy

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