Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[MightyB]

and look at us now.

he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

[Lucas]

he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

this is actually true. the path that the guy was suggesting people take in regards to classical training with martial arts in modern times is the same basic path the best fighters in the world use today. regardless of style, it was an idea to a training approach that is significant. was he the only person to tink like this ? no. was he the most famous and outspoken to push this mindset? yes.

was he the best ever..? hell no. was he great? idk maybe, maybe not. was he right about stagnation and rigid reform to outdated training methods? hell ya he was. look at how many of the worlds actual top fighters speak highly of his impact on them. then look at how all the non fighter traditionalists hate him...zinger

[Jimbo]

I agree with MightyB and Lucas.

I don't see how anyone can say that BL ruined the state of CMA in the world. If he'd never come along, CMA would likely be in the same or worse than it is today. There's a tendency among many CMAists to throw blame around when we're all (or mostly are) adults. There's also always a desire to be negative about other CMAists (I'm not counting frauds). It happens among other types of MA, but nothing close to among CMAists.

Did 'wax on/wax off', 'the crane kick', and 'Danial-san' ruin karate? Why is it doing so well?

It's weird, because on one hand, many say that BL wasn't any good, then turn around and say he ruined the whole state of CMA. Wow, that's giving a lot of power to a guy who supposedly 'sucked'. Instead of blaming a man who's been dead almost 40 years, maybe if there was less infighting and elitist attitudes among so many CMAists, kung fu would be in a 'better state'.

[Scott R. Brown]

It is important to keep Bruce Lee's contributions within their proper historical context. We should not rate him based upon today's state of the martial arts, but the state of the martial arts of the late 60's and early 70's.

At that time martial skills on the tournament scale pretty much sucked. He was revolutionary for the time in which he lived. So were his movies and the physical condition and skills he displayed at that time in history.

Even his philosophy was pretty much borrowed from others but he still introduced some of the concepts to the western mind for the first time. In Asia they would have recognized his borrowing for what it was, but not here in America because we didn't have the same easy access as Asians would have to their own philosophical history.

[Lucas]

It is important to keep Bruce Lee's contributions within their proper historical context. We should not rate him based upon today's state of the martial arts, but the state of the martial arts of the late 60's and early 70's.

At that time martial skills on the tournament scale pretty much sucked. He was revolutionary for the time in which he lived. So were his movies and the physical condition and skills he displayed at that time in history.

Even his philosophy was pretty much borrowed from others but he still introduced some of the concepts to the western mind for the first time. In Asia they would have recognized his borrowing for what it was, but not here in America because we didn't have the same easy access as Asians would have to their own philosophical history.

exactly. perspective is important. the training our elite fighters get today has taking the types of ideas BL had in his day to a whole new level. the same basic direction in regards to evolution of martial training. the thing about todays world that really changes the way martial arts evolve is the great amount of global electronic communication we have at our disposal. everyone is capable of being analyzed, discussed, suggested, improved upon, etc. to the degree that we move leaps and bounds forward in comparison to our forefathers that did not have this type of immediate world wide evaluation at their disposal.

its funny, but the internet is really one of our greatest tools in terms of broadening and furthering our own personal approaches to training.

[Lucas]

I think it is also important to note that BL was not alone even at that time in the ideas he was beginning to formulate. I'll even go so far as to say he wasnt alone in that for hundreds of years. Evolution and further development of ways to make ourselves more dangerous as martial artists is actually the true tradition of training for combat. Why do you think so much heavy lifting, pushing, and pulling has always been done at Shaolin, combined with the desire to aquire so many styles? Thats cross training to as large of a degree that could be managed at that time, and in that world. BL's ideas actually are classical and traditional in that regard, he was just operating from a modern perspective.

also we cant hold his wc training against him, its not his fault he never truly discovered Shaolin kungfu he was a true victim of circumstance.

[Brule]

If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall.

[bawang]

he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

these problems were only in hongkong kung fu, because hong kong is a place to make money.

because of bruce lee martial arts from a backward and inbred area the size of a pimple on china's ass became the spokesman for kung fu.

[LaterthanNever]

'If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall. '

Bruce did study some Hung Ga..and he was very complimentary towards CLF. Your statement is just plain idiotic

[Brule]

'If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall. '

Bruce did study some Hung Ga..and he was very complimentary towards CLF. Your statement is just plain idiotic

So is this thread. Hence why i made a silly statement hoping to outline the stupidty of some here who exalt someone like BL to the point of him being the ultimate in martial arts.

[Jimbo]

There's mostly two camps:

The 'BL was the greatest ever' camp.

The 'BL sucked' camp.

All of this is stuff that people have projected onto him. And then somewhere is the truth. None of us knew him, and NOBODY knows how BL might have matured. He wasn't the greatest (not even close), but he sure didn't suck (not even close, either). How many people are still even discussed 40 years after they're gone?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Wing Chun came into north America back before 1900, but was not brought in by monks and such like David Caridine would tell you. Wing Chun was the most common gung fu of that time to come here. It came with Chinese gangs and gangsters. It was taught by members of the gangs to other members of the gang. It was not taught to none chinese and was pretty much kept behind closed doors. My first teachings started in 1955.

It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasn’t enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

Bruce Was not confident of his Wing Chun and like so many others wanted to marry it with western boxing and ballet dancing. He came up with the JKD as a result, which you can see in any of his movies. The fight scenes were of course staged to make him look outrageously good. He was a great marketer of his own movies and of himself, but in reality he was not a great martial artist.

That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. I’ll admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was “the greatest martial artist of all time” was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

[Fa Xing]

It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasn’t enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. I’ll admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was “the greatest martial artist of all time” was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

That's interesting, I have had a similar experience with TMA's. The more experience and training I do, the more I realize that strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork just don't work when it comes to fighting. The more I learn about effective and efficient fighting, the more I realize how deep yet simple Jeet Kune Do really is.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

That's interesting, I have had a similar experience with TMA's. The more experience and training I do, the more I realize that strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork just don't work when it comes to fighting. The more I learn about effective and efficient fighting, the more I realize how deep yet simple Jeet Kune Do really is.

The footwork found in the forms of traditional styles like Karate, TKD, and kung fu are just exercises for strength training and coordination. Is it not obvious that a bow stance is just an exaggerated forward fighting stance. It's meant to stretch the tendons and give a sense of structure for power generation. How can it be denied that practicing a horse stance all the time builds leg muscles and puts a spring in your legwork. We've seen fighters with traditional backgrounds mop the floor with dancing flight footed boxers in the UFC so I can't help but disagree with you. Lyoto Machida has had a traditional Shotokan training regime all of his life and he was the UFC Light Heavyweight Champion. So I guess Karate sucks? Dan Hardy trained with the Shaolin monks and he's had a more or less winning career (24-10). It's obvious Cung Le trained in TKD and uses some of their kicks to great effect. One thing about non-traditional fighters I've noticed is that their not as sure footed as people who have trained extensively in some traditional styles. I think that's why boxers and kickboxers were so easy to take down in the early days of MMA. They were dancing around too much and they just got smothered. Perhaps you didn't train in the traditional style that fit you.

[Fa Xing]

The footwork found in the forms of traditional styles like Karate, TKD, and kung fu are just exercises for strength training and coordination. Is it not obvious that a bow stance is just an exaggerated forward fighting stance. It's meant to stretch the tendons and give a sense of structure for power generation. How can it be denied that practicing a horse stance all the time builds leg muscles and puts a spring in your legwork. We've seen fighters with traditional backgrounds mop the floor with dancing flight footed boxers in the UFC so I can't help but disagree with you. Lyoto Machida has had a traditional Shotokan training regime all of his life and he was the UFC Light Heavyweight Champion. So I guess Karate sucks? Dan Hardy trained with the Shaolin monks and he's had a more or less winning career (24-10). It's obvious Cung Le trained in TKD and uses some of their kicks to great effect. One thing about non-traditional fighters I've noticed is that their not as sure footed as people who have trained extensively in some traditional styles. I think that's why boxers and kickboxers were so easy to take down in the early days of MMA. They were dancing around too much and they just got smothered. Perhaps you didn't train in the traditional style that fit you.

All of those fighters you've mentioned have modified their traditional styles to be more mobile. Plus in real JKD, not the stuff you see Bruce doing in the movies, is actually a lot more still and not bouncing around like the you seem to assume it is. In all honesty, I think you know absolutely nothing about JKD, and probably never seen anyone practice it.

Chinatown JKD (Wednesday Night Group Branch)
Dan Inosanto