Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[Drake]

I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?

[Fa Xing]

I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?

This+

lol

[Fa Xing]

Leo T. Fong

Very interesting read.

[Jimbo]

It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasn’t enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. I’ll admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was “the greatest martial artist of all time” was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

Does being a fan of someone require the person you admire to only say things that you agree with? In my life, I've admired and respected many people, in and out of the MA's, who happened to have some opinions that differed from mine on certain things. And I knew that none of these people were 'perfect', whatever that's supposed to be. In fact, I admired many of them more for their 'imperfections'. Because we all have them. The question one should ask is, what about this person did they do/accomplish that is positive and inspirational?

I respect the opinions of some posters here whose views often differ from mine. Many people only want to hear those who share the same views as their own. Sometimes you can learn more about your own views by listening to other viewpoints, provided they are respectfully given. Many of the founders of so-called traditional MA were considered upstarts and mavericks for their times.

If someone is waiting for a perfect hero to come along to give respect to, who only agree with their own views, they will be waiting a long, long time (forever).

[Siu Lum Fighter]

All of those fighters you've mentioned have modified their traditional styles to be more mobile. Plus in real JKD, not the stuff you see Bruce doing in the movies, is actually a lot more still and not bouncing around like the you seem to assume it is. In all honesty, I think you know absolutely nothing about JKD, and probably never seen anyone practice it.

Ah, so you’re in the Inosanto camp. I actually have more respect for Inosanto than any of Bruce’s other long time students. It’s arguable he’s the toughest. I’ve done some training in eskrima and I have a great deal of respect for Angel Cabales. I’m on the side of Inosanto when it comes to the whole schism within the JKD world. I think the disagreements between the Ted Wong/Linda Lee and the Inosanto camps mainly stem from JKD seeming to be more of a philosophy than a “style.” If it’s a style then it would have to be similar to the way Bruce actually fought and trained. To be more inclusive of all the stuff he seemed to be exploring and his personal philosophy would mean being more in line with Dan’s approach.

What I was trying to say before was that those traditional styles I mentioned are mobile and I disagree with you if you think they’re full of “strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork” that “just don't work when it comes to fighting.” I think Bruce thought such things because his traditional stuff didn’t work against exceptionally good fighters. I don't see how he could have denied that Wing Chun can work well in real fights when he and others he knew used it quite successfully at times. I think he should have realized that he just didn't know enough to make such an assessment.

I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?

So what if we’re talking about the dead. While Bruce Lee was alive he disrespectfully stood in front of a picture of the deceased master Gichin Funakoshi as if to mock him (even though Karate is Okinawan and not Japanese).

Leo T. Fong

Very interesting read.

Yes, interesting. I find it interesting that Bruce would throw out Wing Chun and put it down all because he had to chase down a “coward.” It should be noted that, Leo Fong had some sort of tense disagreement or harsh interaction with Wong Jack Man. So it’s no surprise he would spread this slander.

Does being a fan of someone require the person you admire to only say things that you agree with? In my life, I've admired and respected many people, in and out of the MA's, who happened to have some opinions that differed from mine on certain things. And I knew that none of these people were 'perfect', whatever that's supposed to be. In fact, I admired many of them more for their 'imperfections'. Because we all have them. The question one should ask is, what about this person did they do/accomplish that is positive and inspirational?

I’ve maintained that Bruce did some good things for the world of martial arts. I’m just expressing my opinions about some of his views and his behavior and, well, I can’t say I admire him for his imperfections. He seemed to have a respect problem with older kung fu masters (he called them “fat and ugly”), and he lacked humility. He had a very bad temper (he viscously kicked Bob Wall after Bob accidentally cut him and said, "My God Bruce I'm sorry!") and if he perceived the SLIGHTEST disrespect from anyone he wanted to fight them. He even beat up Dan Inosanto on Dan’s 24th birthday just for fun. I just can’t admire him for any of these things and I find it hard to consider him a “master” in the traditional sense of the word. That’s just me. Sorry I feel like pointing all of this out but the reason this thread was started was because of certain untruths being spread about the BL/WJM match.

[Jimbo]

Fair enough. Although regarding Inosanto, I thought I read somewhere, Inosanto saying he fist met BL when he (Dan) was 28.

I did not mean you should admire BL for acting disrespectfully, if he did. I said I admired some people more knowing they had flaws like everyone else does. BL just happened to be more famous, so his reported flaws were more exposed.

I've met some TCMA and other types of TMA masters, some old, who displayed far from admirable behavior. In fact, one master I knew of, I knew for a fact was involved in activity that was criminal, and he was not subtle about it. At all. His kung fu was very good, but in other ways not so much. I did not admire him.

I do respect BL for accomplishing many things. I also accept he could have been a jerk at times. I've met a number of young and not so young MAists who were total pr!cks. I was a bit arrogant too, when I was younger. I would think that most people grow up in time, but lifelong training in any MA, traditional or not, isn't a guarantee of that. A relative of mine acted horribly at times when young; now he's one of the nicest, most reliable people I know. Maybe BL would have matured like that, if he wasn't starting to already. We'll never know and it's a waste of time to speculate.

Anyway, regarding the fight, there's always he said/he said, and then somewhere lies the truth.

[Fa Xing]

Ah, so you’re in the Inosanto camp. I actually have more respect for Inosanto than any of Bruce’s other long time students. It’s arguable he’s the toughest. I’ve done some training in eskrima and I have a great deal of respect for Angel Cabales. I’m on the side of Inosanto when it comes to the whole schism within the JKD world. I think the disagreements between the Ted Wong/Linda Lee and the Inosanto camps mainly stem from JKD seeming to be more of a philosophy than a “style.” If it’s a style then it would have to be similar to the way Bruce actually fought and trained. To be more inclusive of all the stuff he seemed to be exploring and his personal philosophy would mean being more in line with Dan’s approach.

Actually, I could care less about the whole "camp," there are things I agree and disagree with on both sides of the coin. In fact, most of my JKD training comes from those considered more on the "original" side. However, I consider learning to be more important than who's right or wrong. I will decide what works for me based on my experience.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

But if you consider Jeet Kune Do or Jun Fan Gung Fu as your main style then you have to have a stake in the whole controversy involving the proponents of Bruce Lee's "original" style and the more progressive interpretation that includes Inosanto's Eskrima and the Filipino arts. Would you be more on Teri Tom's and Linda Lee Caldwell's side or Paul Vunak's with his Progressive Fighting Systems style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUdVdjcAFyE

Interesting thing about this video for me is that they're demonstrating Eskrima and Kali techniques more than anything. I guess the JKD comes in around 5:35 when Sifu Harinder Singh Sabharwal (the bald guy in the middle) starts sparring without weapons. It's funny because he almost seems to be mimicking Bruce Lee before they start doing some chi sao (which isn't how a realistic fight would go). It makes me wonder about what Jeet Kune Do is. The people who claim that it's putting BL's theories into practice still seem to mimic the way Bruce Lee moved and fought like they just saw one of his movies and they wish they were him. I guess there's nothing wrong with that. Students often try to mimic their masters. At one time I acted like I was Bruce Lee when I used to spar my classmates in Karate class so I guess in a sense he was just as much one of my "masters" as my Karate senseis (I was only a yellow belt).

In my opinion Bruce Lee's opinions about forms were unfounded. Forms do more than help someone integrate footwork and striking, they contain the particular techniques of whatever style you're training with. If he thought the footwork in any given style was unnatural then I think he should have made up his own set of movements. That's what all of his fans did anyway by mimicking the way he fought the big bosses in his movies.

[Yum Cha]

Fair enough. Although regarding Inosanto, I thought I read somewhere, Inosanto saying he fist met BL when he (Dan) was 28.

I was told by a Parker Kenpo friend that Inosanto was a student of Ed Parker, and being the baddest of the lot, was assigned to look after Bruce Lee while Bruce was working with Parker on the early Tournaments in the states. Everybody has seen the Bruce Lee full contact sparring demo with all the body armour? Both Parker and Lee were showmen.
Inosanto got to know Bruce and shifted over to become his student.

No ill will was ever mentioned from the Kenpo camp.

When were those tournaments? Early 60's?

[Fa Xing]

I was told by a Parker Kenpo friend that Inosanto was a student of Ed Parker, and being the baddest of the lot, was assigned to look after Bruce Lee while Bruce was working with Parker on the early Tournaments in the states. Everybody has seen the Bruce Lee full contact sparring demo with all the body armour? Both Parker and Lee were showmen.
Inosanto got to know Bruce and shifted over to become his student.

No ill will was ever mentioned from the Kenpo camp.

When were those tournaments? Early 60's?

Mid-60's, first one was 1964 if I'm not mistaken.

[valentina]

will be coming out sometime in December 2012 hopefully, and it is far away the most detailed account of that incident I have ever seen, and I have seen most everything which was written about it on the internet, etc. but this book really takes it to another level. The work and research he did on it is pretty impressive...

[pazman]

Did either Lee or Wong employ any elite trickery, dark psychology, or "snake engine" techniques into the fight?

I really want to know because this fight was really important.

[valentina]

This is for people who are interested in this challenge match. I know that he spent a long time on it and this should bring new insight to the story. I have seen it and was quite surprised at the detail. He even had a picture of the car they drove over to Oakland in! Not the same car but the same year, same model, only a different color. I think people will be pleasantly surprised. The fact that Grandmaster Ming Lum and Sifu Greglon Lee liked it says quite a bit I believe. Since no one brought a movie camera to the fight, there has been much speculation and discussion about this. If you don't have a kindle, there does exist free software that allows people to read it on other platforms.

Here's the link.

http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakla...own+in+oakland

I think this might add to everyone's discussion on this topic.

[valentina]

This e-book is now out on this match. This is the long version of the story. For anyone wondering what happened, martial arts people, JKD people, fans, etc.

Here is the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakla...own+in+oakland

[Brule]

It still surprises me what people do in order to try and make money. sheesh....