Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[bawang]

Sorry. Just saw that I didn't post the link.

http://hawkinscheung.com/wp/about/

Interview was published in IKF in 1991.

well that explains it

bribed someone and learned 3 forms in 2 months

[-N-]

The footwork that Bruce demonstrated to Hawkins Cheung gives more insight to the fight. WJM was not running all over the place. He was using stepping, shifting and dodging, defensive methods associated with the Northern styles. Those unfamiliar with such methods may have viewed WJM as running away. Bruce may have gassed out from hitting so much air, something that affects boxers as well.

Sounds like BL really didn't have a good understanding of Northern styles or its footwork. Especially if he picked up some N. Shaolin before leaving HK thinking just to have something fancy/showy to teach.

And what Bawang said, 3 sets in 2 months.

So BL had minimal background in Shaolin, but constantly criticized it as ineffective. That's no different than how some KF guys criticize boxing without really understanding it.

If WJM was literally running and putting distance between them, there would have been no reason for BL to punch himself out from missing. And how much room was there to run anyway? Wouldn't you just say to the person, "Did you come to fight, or to run away?"

More likely, WJM was doing just enough to evade BL. And BL gassed himself out of frustration and rage.

Even Hawkings Cheung had to turn to karate to pick up mid/long range footwork.

How about this scenario...

BL showed up in Chinatown with some skills and ****ed everybody off with all his trash talking.

Someone like Lau Bun isn't going to personally kick his @ss. A person at that level has nothing to gain from fighting some mouthy kid that knew some WC. If he anihilates Lee, he would be criticized for picking on a lesser person. If he held back, people would say he lost.

WJM was a noob. He was convenient to put up to respond to BL. BL couldn't shut down WJM's school, but Chinatown kf community could. If BL beat WJM, then tough luck. If WJM beat BL, then Lee wouldn't be able to trash talk any more.

WJM probably had nothing personal against BL. He probably had to pay his dues to be allowed to keep his school open. That could be why he doesn't talk about the fight. To not drag the names of others into it. That could be why when he was asked several times if he won, he answered by saying that his sign was still up outside his school. That's all he wanted, just to have his school.

That situation with the noob teacher being tested was pretty common. When my teacher first established himself in SF, one of his seniors sent 2 top students to "verify his qualifications" to teach. When they attacked, one received a cross kick, and the other had to carry him away. Nothing further was said, and my teacher continued teaching.

On one occasion, many years later, a teacher brought his student to challenge my teacher. They were told that if they wanted to say they are better, then go ahead, and please leave us alone. My teacher didn't fight the student, but word got out in the kf community, and there was no problem for my teacher.

[mickey]

More likely, WJM was doing just enough to evade BL. And BL gassed himself out of frustration and rage.

Even Hawkings Cheung had to turn to karate to pick up mid/long range footwork.

How about this scenario...

BL showed up in Chinatown with some skills and ****ed everybody off with all his trash talking.

Someone like Lau Bun isn't going to personally kick his @ss. A person at that level has nothing to gain from fighting some mouthy kid that knew some WC. If he anihilates Lee, he would be criticized for picking on a lesser person. If he held back, people would say he lost.

WJM was a noob. He was convenient to put up to respond to BL. BL couldn't shut down WJM's school, but Chinatown kf community could. If BL beat WJM, then tough luck. If WJM beat BL, then Lee wouldn't be able to trash talk any more.

WJM probably had nothing personal against BL. He probably had to pay his dues to be allowed to keep his school open. That could be why he doesn't talk about the fight. To not drag the names of others into it. That could be why when he was asked several times if he won, he answered by saying that his sign was still up outside his school. That's all he wanted, just to have his school.

That situation with the noob teacher being tested was pretty common. When my teacher first established himself in SF, one of his seniors sent 2 top students to "verify his qualifications" to teach. When they attacked, one received a cross kick, and the other had to carry him away. Nothing further was said, and my teacher continued teaching.

On one occasion, many years later, a teacher brought his student to challenge my teacher. They were told that if they wanted to say they are better, then go ahead, and please leave us alone. My teacher didn't fight the student, but word got out in the kf community, and there was no problem for my teacher.

Re"More likely....." We are in the same page with this. We just described it differently.

Re Your scenario: I can understand the tradition of it. But Bruce tried to take somebody out. And he FAILED. He went from saying something like "you have been killed by your friend" to desperately saying, "Do you give up?"

mickey

[bawang]

wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.

the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.

martial career:

-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes "gong fu" to american people in interviews

personal virtues:
-ambushes random untrained pedastrians to test wing chun
-betrays yip man
-seduces his student, marries her, later has hong kong mistresses
-insults and bullies chinese gong fu guys in chinatown who are poor coolies

cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective
-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people
-in 1990s only remembered by high pitched screams "WACHAAAA", used to as insult to degrade asians
-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures
-in modern millenial generation is remembered by NO ONE, remaining kung fu enthusiasts are age 35+ remnants, except few big cities

conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.

[-N-]

We just described it differently.

Yes.

Mainly I thought it telling that BL's superficial take on N. Shaolin was that it was just something flashy he could sell to the public. Didn't fully appreciate it, and couldn't deal with it as well as he thought he could when he went up against WJM.

[-N-]

wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.

the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.

[...]

conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.

And that technique is called "Bawang Drops Mic".

[sanjuro_ronin]

wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.

the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.

martial career:

-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes "gong fu" to american people in interviews

personal virtues:
-ambushes random untrained pedastrians to test wing chun
-betrays yip man
-seduces his student, marries her, later has hong kong mistresses
-insults and bullies chinese gong fu guys in chinatown who are poor coolies

cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective
-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people
-in 1990s only remembered by high pitched screams "WACHAAAA", used to as insult to degrade asians
-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures
-in modern millenial generation is remembered by NO ONE, remaining kung fu enthusiasts are age 35+ remnants, except few big cities

conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

[Jimbo]

wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.

the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.

martial career:

-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes "gong fu" to american people in interviews

personal virtues:
-ambushes random untrained pedastrians to test wing chun
-betrays yip man
-seduces his student, marries her, later has hong kong mistresses
-insults and bullies chinese gong fu guys in chinatown who are poor coolies

cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective
-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people
-in 1990s only remembered by high pitched screams "WACHAAAA", used to as insult to degrade asians
-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures
-in modern millenial generation is remembered by NO ONE, remaining kung fu enthusiasts are age 35+ remnants, except few big cities

conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.

[boxerbilly]

wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.

the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.

martial career:

-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes "gong fu" to american people in interviews

personal virtues:
-ambushes random untrained pedastrians to test wing chun
-betrays yip man
-seduces his student, marries her, later has hong kong mistresses
-insults and bullies chinese gong fu guys in chinatown who are poor coolies

cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective
-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people
-in 1990s only remembered by high pitched screams "WACHAAAA", used to as insult to degrade asians
-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures
-in modern millenial generation is remembered by NO ONE, remaining kung fu enthusiasts are age 35+ remnants, except few big cities

conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.

**** interloper.

[David Jamieson]

Funny how that works eh?

Ah well, it is what it is.

[-N-]

martial career:

-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes "gong fu" to american people in interviews

Lol.

I hadn't paid all that much attention to the details of Bruce Lee's bio until this discussion thread.

But really... I just now read that he had 2 years of Wing Chun training as a high school kid.

So he came to the US with that and 2 months of Shaolin forms, and proceeds to tell everyone he meets that they don't know sh!t?

[Jimbo]

Lol.

I hadn't paid all that much attention to the details of Bruce Lee's bio until this discussion thread.

But really... I just now read that he had 2 years of Wing Chun training as a high school kid.

So he came to the US with that and 2 months of Shaolin forms, and proceeds to tell everyone he meets that they don't know sh!t?

Not long after arriving in San Francisco, BL visited the Hung Sing CLF kwoon, loudly proclaiming the superiority of WC, but turned tail and fled when confronted by Lau Bun, who told him to get out. Reportedly, some of Lau Bun's senior students were ready for a fight and laughed when BL took off.

[mickey]

cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective. Bruce also brought to the fore the importance of resistance training and overall body conditioning. Basically, TCMA requires strength and stamina and sparring. He did not kiss up to the "defend yourself without using strength" paradigm put forth by so many masters, Chinese or otherwise.

-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people

-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures

- If American interest died down it is because they found out that serious traditional training in CMA is difficult.

- In Chinese society there was the concern of criminal elements within kung fu schools; so, those energies were present long before Bruce came bouncing along

- Bruce COMPLETELY BROKE the cinematic stereotype of the quiet, small, asexual, effeminate kung fu master.

In the film Fist of Fury (The Big Boss), Bruce's character visits a brothel before he takes on the villains in the final scene. This scene was cut from most prints.

In the film The Chinese Connection, Bruce's character passionately kisses Nora Miao's character in the graveyard scene. That scene was not always shown. The fight scene where Bruce's character impales Yoshida with the sword was actually a revisit to a Wong Fei Hung movie. In that film Wong Fei Hung injures the Japanese master (played by the same actor who played Yoshida) and offers to provide him with medical assistance. Bruce's character offers medical assistance with a wild swinging punch, figuratively saying, "I ain't no Wong Fei Hung, motherf@cker!" For anyone who followed the Wong Fei Hung flicks, this must have been a total shock to their system. They were seeing something totally different. By the way, that same Wong Fei Hung movie may have inspired Bruce's film, The Game of death.


mickey

[Jimbo]

- If American interest died down it is because they found out that serious traditional training in CMA is difficult.

- In Chinese society there was the concern of criminal elements within kung fu schools; so, those energies were present long before Bruce came bouncing along

- Bruce COMPLETELY BROKE the stereotype of the quiet, small, asexual, effeminate kung fu master.

In the film Fist of Fury (The Big Boss), Bruce's character visits a brothel before he takes on the villains in the final scene. This scene was cut from most prints.

In the film The Chinese Connection, Bruce's character passionately kisses Nora Miao's character in the graveyard scene. That scene was not always shown. The fight scene where Bruce's character impales Yoshida with the sword was actually a revisit to a Wong Fei Hung movie. In that film Wong Fei Hung injures the Japanese master (played by the same actor who played Yoshida) and offers to provide him with medical assistance. Bruce's character offers medical assistance with a wild swinging punch, figuratively saying, "I ain't no Wong Fei Hung, motherf@cker!" For anyone who followed the Wong Fei Hung flicks, this must have been a total shock to their system. They were seeing something totally different. By the way, that same Wong Fei Hung movie may have inspired Bruce's film, The Game of death.


mickey

You also make some good points, mickey.

However, much of the American interest in kung fu dying down also had a lot to do with unqualified karate teachers passing themselves off as kung fu teachers. All of a sudden, many karate schools began advertising 'kung fu-karate' on their front windows and signs. And TBH, most people really didn't know the difference anyway, and still don't.

Real TCMA that were openly taught were relatively rare at that time, and certainly weren't available everywhere. Certainly not everywhere that people were advertising their karate as kung fu, or kung fu as being just another style/category of karate. Many TCMA are still hard to find or remain unavailable today in many parts of the U.S.

[mickey]

You also make some good points, mickey.

However, much of the American interest in kung fu dying down also had a lot to do with unqualified karate teachers passing themselves off as kung fu teachers. All of a sudden, many karate schools began advertising 'kung fu-karate' on their front windows and signs. And TBH, most people really didn't know the difference anyway, and still don't.

Real TCMA that were openly taught were relatively rare at that time, and certainly weren't available everywhere. Certainly not everywhere that people were advertising their karate as kung fu, or kung fu as being just another style/category of karate. Many TCMA are still hard to find or remain unavailable today in many parts of the U.S.

Greetings Jimbo,

There is room for several on the soapbox I stand on.

Thank you for bringing forth the chicanery that was going on at the time.

EDIT: The chicanery still exists.


mickey