Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[IronFist]

I cannot believe how fast you guys respond to this thread

What timezones are you all in? Holy crap.

[omarthefish]

4:30 Saturday afternoon in China here.

edit: Plus it's a national holidy here the whole first week of May so no work or other responsabilities.

[Lowlynobody]

6:30 Saturday evening here in Sydney. Just considering dinner

[word of honor]

it was 1:30am then but now it's 10:10 saturday morning and time for some caffeine

[BlueTravesty]

I did that "sleeping" thing I keep hearing so much about :-D

almost 1:30 PM here (EST)

[Akhilleus]

OK gang this is a good thread, good discussion, lots of great info...but can I please add my two cents? Alright then...

Earlier in this thread, there was some debate regarding drills practice vs. actual practice...I think this has something to do with SAID...sorry I will go back and read the whole thread later...but for now...

What I mean by actual practice would be something like what you are really training for...for a mixed martial artist it would involve sparring where you keep fighting on the ground...for a hoopster, it would involve scrimmaging...now I can say as a former hoopster, that scrimmaging is much more fun than drills, and is very beneficial to your growth as a baller...however, you still should do drills, here's why...

Let's say Mickey up in Harlem plays 8 scrimmage games per day...he's getting pretty good at man-to-man "D", ball handling and develops a good feel for the court...over the course of the 8 scrimmages per day he takes about 20 jump shots, 15 set shot, 10 lay ups, 4 dunks, 10 free throws, 5 three-pointers, makes a few passes and gets a few rebounds....

Now Billy Bob, down in Indiana, never scrimmages, but he takes 100 free throws, 100 three pointers, 100 lay ups, he can't dunk, and 100 set shots per day...

As you can see, a balance is what is needed...Mickey has never really taken enough of each kind of shot to reach his full potential...he may find himself in a position he's never happened to find himself in in his previous scrimmages...Billy Bob on the other hand, is prepared to shoot from any spot on the floor, but has never been in a game type situation, so he doesn't have a feel for the court or all of the different variables that come into play in a game...

[fa_jing]

For some data on muscle hypertrophy, here's my experience: When I began training Kung Fu, I hadn't been active for a few years. I had some back injuries but Kung Fu didn't bother them, and improved them somewhat. I did horse stance training, working up to 4 minutes or so in a thighs-parallel-to-floor stance and I saw growth in my legs, as well as much better lower back strength. I also hit bags, did drills, jumped rope and stuff. Then I did Hindu Squats for 7-8 months, working up to 400 straight, and saw more thigh gain than I had than I did from working my horse. It's hard to say exactly since I was no longer hitting the bags at that point, but I'm pretty sure that Hindu Squats are more effective for putting on muscle than holding a parallel horse stance. Hindu Squats also work the lower back well. Then, I did kettlebells for a period of time. This didn't target the quads quite as much as the Hindu Squats do, but overall doing kettlebell jerks, snatches, swings, and weighted pistols was a better leg developer than the Hindu Squats. Now, I've been lifting barbells for about a year, doing power lifts and oly lifts, and they are yet better for putting on muscle.

I haven't been training MA for a few years and I haven't kept up with any of the MA exercises. I can only hold that low horse for about 2 minutes now! My flexibility is not great since my muscles are sore from lifting, and I don't want to experience any more pain . Even though I am not some lifelong MA devotee, I'm doing kettlebells again, I want to do Hindu Squats and Horse stance again. All these things have their benefit to the average person, and me in particular. The problem is that there are too many things to choose from, and only so much recovery ability, not to mention time for a busy person! I do need to cycle away from heavy lifting in order to work on my other attributes and most of all stay healthy. That's just me though ( and most other people. )

All that said, Kung Fu people need to lift more weights, that's for sure.

[fa_jing]

and the students should practice their horse stance more too! Kung Fu students are lazy, they want everything handed to them on a platter nowadays! Real Kung Fu training break your bones!

[WinterPalm]

Amen to that last post!

[SevenStar]

Gosh I think I said something similar about a million post ago. Notice how it was conveniently ignored by Ironfist.

in those examples, it applies directly, as that is the exact position that those players use when guarding a man, blocking linemen, etc. Iron's point is that in fighting, you won't rely on that position for extended periods of time, making the need to hold a static position for extended periods unnecessary

[PangQuan]

Of course you're not going to fight out of a horse stance

I do. Of course I dont stay in horse the entire time, but I do use horse quite a bit when I spar. I learned this from my sifu, he fights from very low stances. Of course there are higher stances adapted into the fight/sparring match, but dont think for a second that low stances have no place. I have used low stances a number of times to get in on my opponent.

Just because some people cannot see how low stances are of an advantage in a combat situation, just means they cant see why or how.

If you can not hold your horse for a long amount of time, then good luck staying in low stances for several minutes while fighting. You wont be able to. Now if you can stay in low stances for, say, half an hour, then you will be able to utilize the effectiveness of low stances in a fight, when ever you need to, without the possiblilty of becoming more fatigued from the strain low stance standing, walking and moving can put on your body.

[SevenStar]

"in those examples, it applies directly, as that is the exact position that those players use when guarding a man, blocking linemen, etc. Iron's point is that in fighting, you won't rely on that position for extended periods of time, making the need to hold a static position for extended periods unnecessary"

Your thinking is so limited. Of course you're not going to fight out of a horse stance, but it is important to develop the internal feeling that comes from training in static positions. There is mind and body connection thing going on there. Static stances are an historical part of gongfu training for a reason. The Chinese understood weightlifting, it's a part of Shuai Jiao training. So, modern weightlifting does not replace what is going on with static stances.

As a note, don't discard old style training methods, because you don't understand them or because Bruce Lee said so.

it's not limited at all - it's just outside of the cma box. and if you notice, I didn't mention weight training at all. but, yeah, you're right - shuai chiao guys use pulleys, the rock pole, etc. To be precise, neither of them are necessary for learning how to fight. Mind body connection can be achieved in other ways than stance training. you cannot give one logical justification how a 40 min horse is directly helping you in a fight.

as for fighting from the horse, sure you do - but its transitional, so actually, you just helped to make my point. you will transition into and out of various stances - not statically hold them.

[IronFist]

SevenStar gets it.

[word of honor]

i'm not into long static stance training either but ime 3m training a low static stance does help with transitioning through low stances during sparring. increasing your range of motion isn't exactly the right term but it comes close-

[Shaolinlueb]

heres an idea. stop complaining, do some nice deep horse stance training and have stronger legs. it will all be good in the end.