Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[omarthefish]

More fuel for the fire...I got a discussion going here on stance training in sports here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1115275144

[joedoe]

I found horse stance useful when I played volleyball. In the defensive mode in the back court, you need to stay low to the ground in a position very similar to ma bu. In fact we did stance training in volleyball for this reason (and to improve mobility in that position).

[Losttrak]

I was thinking about that but I'd rather just chalk it up to the fact that I rarely post here so no one realizes I have things to say that are better said without dumbing my posts down to a 3rd grade level.

But I dunno. Maybe I should just stick to my "regular" boards.


Do us all a favor and never come back, you *****. =D

[omarthefish]

The person I wrote that too undertood the context.

You on the other hand:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=36624

[Losttrak]

Link all you want...

[omarthefish]

Still waiting to hear what "lies and falsehoods" I've been spreading.

As long as you keep the personal insults and profanities out I'll respond on the thread. The random trolling just gets the link.

[Losttrak]

I never said lies... and by not mentioning topics, I don't allow you an opportunity to grandstand, which is your specialty.

[IronFist]

Bench press is still almost worthless for developing punching power. It can only help you arm punch better. Like you said, SAID, training to push will get you better at PUSHING, not punching. I assume there are many atheletic endeavor where this is important. A striking style MA is not one.

Yes, punching is a full body motion. The legs, waist, arms, shoulder, ect., are all involved in it. Let's look at just the arms and shoulders for now:

Take two people who are identical. They have both trained in a punching art for 5 years, they've both practiced the same way for the same time. The only difference is one guy can bench press 400 pounds and the other guy never lifts weights and can only bench 90. All else being equal (ie. economy of motion, neurological efficiency in the movement, coordination, skill, etc.) the guy who can bench 400lbs will have muscles that are capable of generating more power than the other guy. So assuming the two people's punches are otherwise exactly the same, the bench presser will hit harder because he can generate more force with his muscles.

Now if you take that same premise and extrapolate to all the other muscles in his body, you can see how being strong (ie. able to generate a lot of force) will let you hit harder. We're talking trained fighers here, of course; not Joe Schmoe the weight lifter who has no fighting experience vs. John Doe the boxer who has never lifted a weight. Of course in that case the boxer could probably hit harder.

This ties in with my original point because I said holding a horse stance for long periods of time does not increase the amount of tension (power) one can generate.

But we're deviating from the original argument I think.

Be specific. What stance?

Horse stance. Isn't that what this thread was about?

I fight from the stances I train. I suspect I don't fight from the (most likely) Shaolin Sei Ping Ma that you are imagining. But I sure as hell used a rough approximation of it when I was in Hung Gar along with bow and empty stances. Now that I'm training Baji, I tend to use the Baji stances more which are different.

You use bow and arrow stances in a fight? I'm sure it's transitional and you don't fight in the stance for long periods of time (ie. hold it). If that is true, then holding it for a long period of time in your training isn't benefitting you much in fighting. It would be like practicing your sprinting because you have a marathon coming up; completely pointless.

As for the rest of the thread, :yawn:

[omarthefish]

Horse stance. Isn't that what this thread was about?

Yeah but then you asked me a question directly. And technically all gong fu stances are "horses". I know which one you mean but I just wanted to be extra clear.

You use bow and arrow stances in a fight? I'm sure it's transitional and you don't fight in the stance for long periods of time (ie. hold it).

Yes, that's true, but if I don't work those stances specifically then they don't show up in the sparring. The reason we are able to find some common ground here is that it looks like we agree on a lot of what stances aren't for and what holding them for long periods doesn't do. If you don't settle down for some serious stance training I don't know how else you can ingrain those postures into your body deep enough to fall into them under pressure. For example, I may only move through a bow and then empty stance for a fraction of a second as I slip a punch stepping forward and to the left shooting a verticle (right) punch to the body (bow stance) and then follow up with a left to the face (empty stance, weighted on the left leg) and then scoot back out. That quick 2 hit combo uses bow and empty.

But here's the thing, for those punches to have any power you need those stances solid. If you haven't built up sound structure through stance training you are likely to lack power for those punches since you have no good connection to the ground. Simply doing weight training will not train the posture, only the muscles. We agree in that I don't view stance training as primarily for developing "strength" per se. More like structure. And although I don't hold those stances individially for any length of time, during sparring I DO stay fairly continually in one or another. Training them extensively for long periods of time allows me to fight comfortably froma very low crouch if I need to, which when I did Hung Gar was extremely usefull for dealing with taller people.

Take two people who are identical. . . . one guy can bench press 400 pounds and the other guy never lifts weights and can only bench 90. . . .the guy who can bench 400lbs will have muscles that are capable of generating more power than the other guy.... the bench presser will hit harder because he can generate more force with his muscles.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking, and this is slightly changing the topic, the chest, of all the parts involved in punching is almost the least important of all. It is barely relevant. It IS relevant but in the chain of legs->waist->arms->fist, it barely does anything at all. Let me change your story a bit. In my version one guy can bench 400 but only squat 90 and the other guy can squat 400 but bench 90. The squatter will punch the bench presser into next year. Bench pressing to increase your punching power is an incredibly innefective method. Even pushups are more relevant than benching.

Your supposed to "punch with the legs".

[Liokault]

Your supposed to "punch with the legs".

Ah, I see the problem now.....punching with the legs is what we call kicking.

[BlueTravesty]

Cool thread, despite the name-calling and what not

I've only been studying my chosen style (MyJhong LawHorn) for about a year and a half now, but I have made some interesting observations in regards to stance training.

I've noticed that for some reason or other, some people are just naturally better at nailing a good horse stance; the "90 degrees" (probably leg strength, looser joints, etc.) but no matter what, almost everyone who tries it, unless they have horse stance experience, has great difficulty holding the position for long periods of time (in all honesty, my horse stance endurance isn't the greatest, and I'm still a bit further from 90 degrees than I'd like.) Interestingly enough, those with good natural flexibility (like myself) tend to have more trouble holding it than those whose flexibility is lacking (who are better able to attain the 90 degrees.) I'm not well versed in physiology, so I'm not concluding that leg strength and flexibility are mutual exclusives, or that overtraining one can lead to a lack of the other (though my own experience would make me lean that way) just observing.

Also, the guys and gals with good horse stance right off the bat also tend to have a good sidekick too, even if their lack of flexibility has them kicking at hip-level.

Our instructor has told us numerous times that the horse stance is used to develop mental toughness, discipline and a good pain threshold. I can definitely agree that my ability to cope with pain has increased dramatically. He's also indicated that rooting is an elementary form of generating power and that more advanced techniques of gaining maximum power exist to the point where at its highest levels, rooting isn't used so much (except to stay stable.) However, this demands a solid foundation.

As for discipline and mental toughness, well that's something everyone can use more of, be they a "MMAist" or "TMAist." If you develop it better by training to failure doing presses and squats, that's your thing, I can't argue it. The idea with horse stance is to train for success- I try to reach a goal, and everytime I do, I feel like I'm on top of the world.

A lot of that probably falls into the category of "Sifu says" so take it however you like- my experiences and those of the others in class have so far proven him right and that's good enough for me

[Liokault]

Here's the problem with that line of thinking, and this is slightly changing the topic, the chest, of all the parts involved in punching is almost the least important of all. It is barely relevant. It IS relevant but in the chain of legs->waist->arms->fist, it barely does anything at all. Let me change your story a bit. In my version one guy can bench 400 but only squat 90 and the other guy can squat 400 but bench 90. The squatter will punch the bench presser into next year. Bench pressing to increase your punching power is an incredibly innefective method. Even pushups are more relevant than benching.

But the guy doing the press is not just pressing with his chest. He is using his arms. So infact he is training to push away from him self, with his arm at great force (if not always great speed).

[omarthefish]

I know your just trolling me anyways but I'll pretend for the moment that you actually didn't understand my comment and dumb it down for you.

The other option is what in boxing circles is called "arm punching".

[Liokault]

[
But here's the thing, for those punches to have any power you need those stances solid. If you haven't built up sound structure through stance training you are likely to lack power for those punches since you have no good connection to the ground. Simply doing weight training will not train the posture, only the muscles. We agree in that I don't view stance training as primarily for developing "strength" per se. More like structure. And although I don't hold those stances individially for any length of time, during sparring I DO stay fairly continually in one or another. Training them extensively for long periods of time allows me to fight comfortably froma very low crouch if I need to, which when I did Hung Gar was extremely usefull for dealing with taller people.

Again I cant help but feel your looking for reasons to justify your investment in long lonley hours of stance training.

But here's the thing, for those punches to have any power you need those stances solid.

I know guys who can punch really hard with out being in contact with the floor.

Simply doing weight training will not train the posture, only the muscles.

But its the muscles that your generate the force, and there is no reason that you can not work on posture while doing weights. Why is posture a stance thing? Shouldnt we be working on good posture all the time?

I met a guy a few just before xmas at a seminar. One of the hardest hitters I have ever held a pad for (the only 2 harder hitters were running the seminar) and I could rest a beer glass on the back of this guys neck, his posture was so bad!

And although I don't hold those stances individially for any length of time, during sparring I DO stay fairly continually in one or another

Well we are all in one stance or another all the time we are standing up......but come to think about it I dont feel like holding my "waiting for the bus" stance for 45 mins just so im sure im doing it right.


Training them extensively for long periods of time allows me to fight comfortably froma very low crouch if I need to, which when I did Hung Gar was extremely usefull for dealing with taller people

You dont need to hold stances to get this result.....if it is infact a result. Why would you want to make your self less mobile when fighting taller people?

[Liokault]

I know your just trolling me anyways but I'll pretend for the moment that you actually didn't understand my comment and dumb it down for you.

The other option is what in boxing circles is called "arm punching".

Well, if you stop trying to make stupid points, like "a guy doing weights is not going to get stronger" (to miss quote) I will stop trolling (if it is trolling) you.