Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[Shaolinlueb]

i practice mabu training alot. i like it. it helps strengthen joints that are weak and give you soem ncie muslce and conditions the muscle. also more importantly it will make you have a strong stance when done right. now is mabu training alone important? yes, but more important is the mabu to gonbu training and other pivoting exercises with stances, so you learn how to use your twisting power and how to connect everything for striking. total all in all. i spend about 4/5 hours a week doing the stance training. dont just single this training out for learning to use your pivoting, these are mostly strengthen enxercises. you actually have to hit bags too in your fighting stance too, so you learn it that was too.

[David Jamieson]

horse stance-

develops leg strength at the tendons which surround the joints.

develop strength in the quadriceps

develop basic strength in legs which augments ability to be solid in the rooting and hard in the kicking.

Deep horse stance is for augmentation training. Think of it in terms of strength development as opposed to a functional fighting method. Like a boxer who lifts weights to increase arm strength which in turn increase power and even moreso when structure and alignment is correct.

Good horse stance should develop correct structure and alignment and improve and build leg strength in large muscle mass as well as in the tendons.

that's what it's for. It has been said, "you are only as strong as your horse stance"

fighters should be mobile, but should also be able to root. staying rooted is not recommended when fighting, but getting strong root when making your attack will only make your offense stronger.

If you can sit in big square horse for 45 minutes, then move on and start to work on using that strength.

Anyone can sit in yee gee kim yeung ma for 45 minutes with a little determination.

Big square horse (sei ping dai ma) is not the same as other horse stances. It is very strong by comparison to other forms of the horse stance. All horse stance will develop some strength and root and balance, but big square horse is the ultimate of this practice. Many styles do not use it at all. it is mostly found in shaolin based martial arts.

[Lowlynobody]

I agree that you don't do horse stance for leg strength. What's your point?

My point was that if there isn't more to this SAID (and there very well could be) it sounds like a bunch of crap. Just as you said you jump rope for better cardio not for better jump rope. Just like football players do push-ups but when they play a game of football no one actually does a push-up do they?

[MasterKiller]

Just like football players do push-ups but when they play a game of football no one actually does a push-up do they?

Lineman use that same motion every play against a 300-lb opponent. I'd say it translates well.

[Reggie1]

Back to the original question:

I do horse stance for ~1-3 minutes a day, 5 days a week. We are a school (God forbid ) that does a fair amount of horse stance training. Thighs are supposed to be parallel to the floor.

I've never been told that holding horse stance is the best way to make your legs strong or that it will turn you into some champion martial artist. Our school uses horse stance to:

help develop leg strength + stability in new students
help develop the body to get used to low stances for forms work (we use very low stances in all of our forms)
help develop mental toughness and patience
warm up the legs at the beginning of a class

I think prolonged horse stance is one of those 'mental toughness' type tests that our sifu uses to see if you've 'got what it takes'. I know this type of stuff is more CMA-oriented and you MMA guys typically bash stuff like this, but I don't really mind. I like the fact that you have to test yourself this way in our school. That you have to hold horse for a while. Our BB and beyond tests all incorporate holding a parallel horse stance for at least 10 minutes, for up to an hour.

[Lowlynobody]

Good horse stance should develop correct structure and alignment....

That is a lot of it right there. Horse stance can be a meditation. An exercise for the mind as much as the body building the will, determination and character. Horse stance is one way to get your mind used to pain. Remember these are martial arts not sport fighting. There is a difference and there is a lot of things that go together to make up a martial art other then kicks, punches, locks, throws, etc.

If any one is moving around in horse stance constantly they are using it wrong. The connectivity it will bring will help you to hit with you whole body using a strong connection with the ground (root). So when fighting footwork is fast and light then as you connect you root for an instant and then are light and moving again.

With a well trained horse stance (in southern styles at least) you bridge not only with your arms but also with your legs and and utilise a strong root to disrupt their balance by stepping through their centre line (off balance point). This reduces their striking ability and sets them up for your throw or locks or what have you. Horse stance is also a great thing to throw someone over again by steping behind and past the person and throwing them over your lead leg with your lead arm.

Hose stance has its place.

[IronFist]

If you SAID to a MMA person training for a fight that he is wasting his time skipping rope because all it will ever do is make him better at skipping I think he would say that just because you SAID so does not make it true.

You dig?

You are partially correct. Jumping rope is done to gain endurance. An MMA guy training for a fight would get better endurnace for fighting by practicing fighting instead of jumping rope. This is why a lot of MMA guys will train for endurance before a fight by getting lots and lots of mat time, fighting a new fresh opponent every minute or two while they themselves don't get any breaks. This is a perfect example of SAID, and will prepare the fighting much better than jumping rope would. However, jumping rope has some cardio benefits that carry over into fighting.

What I said before was that holding a horse stance past a certain point will not have any transferrable benefit into fighting. Then I gave examples. I said it won't increase your strength for kicking, for example, because it's not increasing the force with which the muscles can contract.

I agree that you don't do horse stance for leg strength. What's your point?

My point was that past a certain point it doesn't have any carryover to fighting.

ewallace answered your other questions.

I can tell from your post that you are thinking, though.

[Lowlynobody]

Lineman use that same motion every play against a 300-lb opponent. I'd say it translates well.

I'm Australian. Not everyone lives in America. What about the rest of the team? And well again you just made my point. Push ups help a Lineman against their 300-lb opponents they don't just make them better at push ups. Do I need to type out more examples?

[MasterKiller]

I'm Australian. Not everyone lives in America. What about the rest of the team? And well again you just made my point. Push ups help a Lineman against their 300-lb opponents they don't just make them better at push ups. Do I need to type out more examples?

Most players will push block, push tackle, or stiff-arm an opponent with the same approximate motion in an American-style football game.

[Lowlynobody]

What I said before was that holding a horse stance past a certain point will not have any transferrable benefit into fighting. Then I gave examples. I said it won't increase your strength for kicking, for example, because it's not increasing the force with which the muscles can contract.

What about building the will and mental endurance of pain. Does not fighting spirit and mental toughness have benefits that transfer into fighting? I read in a MMA or knife fighting book that the author recomended road running. Not simmply for the cadio but so the runner/fighter can benefit from the pain that is experienced. Same deal with horse stance.

Aside from some things I agree with a lot of what you are saying about much of the physical benefits from horse stance. I must mention that I do not do thighs parallel to the floor when doing horse stance.

You are partially correct. Jumping rope is done to gain endurance. An MMA guy training for a fight would get better endurnace for fighting by practicing fighting instead of jumping rope.

If its all about the most efficent and beneficial methodology why then do they jump rope? Why do boxers do it? How about because there are more benefits then just cardio. Maybe it makes their footwork lighter and faster? Wow multiple benefits now!

[Lowlynobody]

Most players will push block, push tackle, or stiff-arm an opponent with the same approximate motion in an American-style football game.

So your saying they don't actually spend time doing push ups just to get better at push ups?

[MasterKiller]

So your saying they don't actually spend time doing push ups just to get better at push ups?

Actually, they probably don't do many push-ups at all; they bench press because weights provide MORE RESISTANCE than another person would if all you did was practice the motion live all the time. You get stronger using weights than you would if all you did was play football, which makes you a better football player.

But at any rate, I'm not arguing with you. Quit trying to argue with me.

[Lowlynobody]

Sorry mate. If my writing sounds like I'm arguing I appologise because I'm not. Just trying to make a point tis all. I could make it with bench press if you like?

[Shaolinlueb]

dude dont worry about master killer. ever since he left the temple to start the 36th chamber, he has been a little too confident.

[Oso]

We do our ba shi almost every day of class (4 times a week).

we do it for 30~60 seconds per stance so 4-8 minutes total. depends on the day and what else I have planned for class.

Sometimes (maybe once a month) we'll do ma bu for 2-4 minutes w/o doing any of the other stances.

I like to mix stuff up a lot though. The other day I had them do 10 break falls then, 30 seconds in a posture, then another 10 falls, repeated till they did 30 seconds in each stance. They ended up w/ 4 minutes of stance training and 80 falls in about 8 minutes total.

they hated me


also, we don't just exercise our legs while doing posture training. Our arms are held in different blocks and strikes while holding the posture so our arms are getting some development as well.