San Da: hurting or helping

[Ray Pina]

I started some new training this week, I consider it a birthday present from my master, that really got me thinking .... because it was so unique.

I look at where competant CMA is evolving to, and when I say competant, I mean willing to fight, and you have to say it's San Da.

But when I see San Da I don't see the differences, such as, where the twisting of Ba Gua, or where's the trapping of Wing Chun, the element strikes of Hung Gar, etc., etc.. etc.

So are we in danger of losing the Chineseness that made these Chinese arts unique?

Were they just not good enough to carry over into present time? Or have we lost them? Or losing them?

Is San Da the answer?

[Ralphie]

IMO, it's conditional: If CMA wants to maintain as fighting arts, they have to have a format that allows people to fight that way safely. This also implies there has to be methods that allow people to train safely and effectively as well. This is why CMA has San Da.

Another thing to think about is something that language goes through, analogical leveling. Things that are actually cumbersome become "leveled", as there are easier, quicker, and more effective ways of communicating ideas. There are better and quicker ways of training certain things now than there were 150 or 1500 years ago.

[red5angel]

No one practices them the way they should be practiced. Wingchun guys chisau and call it sparring. Bagua guys walk holes into the ground. Taichi guys get all sweaty pushing and shoving on each other. It's ridiculous what passes for fight training now a days.

[MasterKiller]

Ray,
Have you seen LKFMDC's training video? While he's teaching a ring-oriented method, it's heavily flavored with CMA theory and application.

[Losttrak]

Did you say losing Chineseness?

[David Jamieson]

San Shou is cool. But I have seen a few instances now where it's called san shou but it's all co-opted Muay Thai stuff. wtf???

San Da is style specific imo. Although, this term has been used and pulled into the San shou thing.

San Da is style specific free fighting. So Hung Ga san da should look different than North Shaolin San Da and so on.

But if it gets dragged into the sportive combat arena then it will have to conform to a rule set and so on hence it becomes...well, kickboxing with throws.

I think Ross likes calling it San Da so he doesn't get mixed up with the wushu aspect of free fighting. ...or maybe that's what he always called it, what say you Ross? Why did you use San Da instead of San Shou?

In summary, it is NOT hurting Chinese martial arts to get themselves out there and get to banging. Where else you gonna learn how to actually fight? You gonna meditate on it a la Hero? bzzzzt wrong answer.

[Ray Pina]

No doubt those guys can fight. Not saying that.

I'm just saying, things like Ba Gua's twisting really generates power, but will we lose this .... to where you have guys doing that training but not fighting, not understanding it.

Also, I think there is the potential for chop suey, if it hasn't happened already. I've never seen footage of old Chinese master doing roundhouse kicks, never mind Thai style kicks. Now it is common in San Da. But you can't compare their round house kick to the real dedicated Thai boxer.

Now, also, there is a push for grappling. But will their grappling ever compare to the grapplers. Is a little bit of everything better than a whole lot of your specialty, be it evasiveness, powerfull shots, etc., etc.?

[Merryprankster]

So are we in danger of losing the Chineseness that made these Chinese arts unique?

Nope. What you lose is silliness of "different principles."

Properly applied principles look almost identical. That is what San Da is showing you.

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.

[red5angel]

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.

can you reasonable back this statement up?

[Reggie1]

Have you seen LKFMDC's training video? While he's teaching a ring-oriented method, it's heavily flavored with CMA theory and application.

What MK said. The video does a great job incoporating a lot of different CMA principles into San Da.

He talks about mantis, tai chi, lots of different arts.

[Reggie1]

It's ridiculous what passes for fight training now a days.

...said the breakdancer.

[Ray Pina]

Nope. What you lose is silliness of "different principles."

Properly applied principles look almost identical. That is what San Da is showing you.

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising. Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go .... who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?

Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

[Merryprankster]

can you reasonable back this statement up?

Sure.

Wrestling, Judo and SC all look very very similar. There are minor differences in execution, but I can identify what is going on in each one. Similarly, I like watching Sumo because I can see what is going on.

Why? Because a throw is a throw is a throw. They all rely on the same principles. The execution is slightly different - there are minor variations on a theme within each art, after all - but the basic movements must be the same or the throws won't work.

While it does not logically follow that this MUST be the same for kicking and punching, reasoning by analogy it seems highly probable. My own limited experience with non-boxing or non-MT strikers suggests it is true.

[Merryprankster]

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

Be reasonable Ray. Compare apples to apples.

I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

I HIGHLY doubt this. You might be having them explained to you in ways that you think are highly against the norm, but I'm betting an experienced artist can find more similarities than differences. A punch is a punch. A kick is a kick. A lock is a lock. A throw is a throw.

Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising.

Different methods are not the same as different principles of movement. If you choose to punch your way out of the problem and I choose to throw, that's one thing. But if you choose to throw you're going to look a lot like me, and in the opposing circumstance, vice versa.

Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go

....


Only retards and submorons.

who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?
Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

You are now comparing fight strategies and preferences, not principles of movement.

[Ray Pina]

A punch is not a punch. On the most basic level you have different punches (upper cut, back fist, over hand, hook) then you have palms and open hand strikes and then you have something different which I haven't seen much of outside of my style but you can call it wave punching..... I've never seen it before.

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.