MK - this is for you...

[SevenStar]

No, it's not the blow up doll of gene that you IMed me about, but maybe it'll be just as good to you...


I happened to be looking through one of my thai boxing books today and read a section about traditional techniques that I hadn't noticed before. It made me think of your "if it works, why don't they use it?" questions. Basically, they reiterated the same things that mp, st, myself and the gang say here - percentage reasons. Fighters have much more success in the ring sticking with basic techniques (In regard to the sidekick, yes, that is basic, but there is more info to come). It stated that some techniques while very effective, also put the wielder of them at risk of getting hurt if they delivered the technique improperly - missed, misjudged timing, etc. Therefore, they recommended that if you do seek to learn any of the old techniques that you have a VERY FIRM grasp of using them and that you are comfortably able to apply them in sparring. It says that for success in the ring, the traditional techniques really aren't necessary.

This has been good and bad. Good in the fact that these guys have an awesome grounding in basics and are devastatingly effective with them. Bad in the sense that alot of the old techniques have since been forgotten, as they are not being passed down on a wide scale. Most of the techniques were preserved through oral traditions (not the tradition that red5 and his dad have) and that there is controversy about what the actual names of the original techniques are. Many thai fighters today have no clue what the old techniques were, however, some of them are basic, and included in basic thai training as they are easily useable. That goes into what I was saying about the sidekick. Traditionally, it is in mae mae, luk mai, etc. but fighters have had more success with other techniques, and consequently, there are fighters today who don't even have a clue what the sidekick is.

The book went on to state that of the traditional styles, mae mai is the easiest to learn, and suggested learning to apply the traditional techniques of that style before trying to learn those of luk mai, chearng or kon.

one of the basic mae mai techniques they mentioned is called chorakee fard hang - it is basically bringing a roundhouse that missed its target back in the reverse direction to strike - for all practical purposes, it is a hook kick.

[MasterKiller]

Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.

Fighters have much more success in the ring sticking with basic techniques (In regard to the sidekick, yes, that is basic, but there is more info to come).

So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?

[ewallace]

Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.

So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?

Because BJJ is a martial art that is commonly adapted for competition. It wasn't designed that way. What all is in the art and what all is commonly used is what has been proven to be effective in competition. Kinda of like what 7 said about some techniques exposing the fighter if the technique is not applied properly. Against someone without any submission game some advanced techniques would work great, but against someone skilled in the same art the cost/gain ratio isn't worth the risk. Basically a long-winded way of saying use what works, discard what doesnt.

[MasterKiller]

I agree EW, but we're talking side-kicks here, not Pheonix Eye fists. The side-kick is powerful and shouldn't leave you vulnerable to many counters. It's a basic kick.

But my point about the sport rules is pertinent to me right now. The MMA fighters I train with use Western boxing and some Muay Thai as their striking art. When they practice those styles, they practice at gyms that teach them to fight according to Western boxing and Thai rules, with the proper equipment. That's great.

But in MMA, we wear MMA gloves and play by MMA rules, and I'm finding that some kung fu techniques work very well against them because they don't train them in those sport arts. Hooking the hands to enter the clinch has been extremely effective, as I mentioned in another thread.

To get back to the point, though, my training partners eat a lot of my side kicks too because they don't see them in their other training. That's what got me to thinking about it in the first place. If it works so well, you'd think some pro somewhere would pick up on this and start using them more often.

Now don't get me wrong, these boys hit hard and most of them are in better shape than me (and much younger), but I'm seeing some of the limitations of their sport-specific training first-hand. I would trust them to back me up in a street fight any day, but we're talking training purposes and theory here, so I don't want anyone to think I'm dissing boxing or MT.

[littlelaugh]

I am very much a kung fu newbie, but my teacher (whom I think used to do a lot of boxing) was talking a bit about this in class today. IIRC, he said that side kicks are just a smidge slower because of the hip turning involved. I am thinking that this may not count for much when two novices are fighting but I bet it factors in quite a bit when two pros are knocking each other around.

Cheers,

Laugh

[ewallace]

I hear you MK. i think it was a kotc match I was watching not too long ago, and the guy (who was not formally trained as a kickboxer) scored a nice shot against someone who was trained as a kickboxer, the shot was a roundhouse upside the head. Guess he just felt he could pull it off.

I'd say keep using the sidekick and stop letting people know its effective.

[Becca]

... IIRC, he said that side kicks are just a smidge slower because of the hip turning involved...

Nope. If they are slower, it is because you don't practice them enough or have cr@ppy technique. I find my side kicks are just as fast and considerably more powerful then a front snap kick. If the heavies aren't using them, it isn't because they are a slow kick. It could be that they just never found themselves in the position were they felt they needed it. Maybe they had other tools in thier arsinal that they felt more comfy using... who knows...

[MasterKiller]

I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

[Becca]

That's a good point. Pai Lum is the only style I've studied that had any real kicking, so I don't have a lot of experience to draw on, but now that you mention it, JMA does tend to square off. I drove my sifu up the wall untill I learned to present my side... I can definantly see how sqaring off would slow down and even telegraph a side kick.

[Judge Pen]

I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

Coming from someone with a slow side kick that often spars peple who are much faster and more athletic, you can compensate with good entering techniques that put you in a position to throw the technique more effectively. I'm getting away from the one-side forward stance personally, but will step into that stance as a trasition to throw the technique.

7*, maybe I missed it, but did you go on to explain why MT doesn't use the side (all I saw was "more on that later.")

[Akhilleus]

I agree with Littlelaugh's teacher...in the styles I have studied, the side kick is generally slower than a front kick or teep...that's why the teep or push kick is a better defense against a leg kick than the side kick is...but they (side kicks) are harder to catch...it is also easier to slide in on your support leg to cover distance on a side kick than a push kick or front kick...and because many guys don't ever practice them or see them in training, they are the technique I've had the most success with when sparring muay thai guys...

Dang I've got to go take my last exam (woo freakin hoo) but I have more to say on why some/a lot of people do not practice the side kick...

[David Jamieson]

All techniques are nothing without the practitioners.

If I train a technique to a level of proficiency wher I can make it work effectively, then someone saying "that is not an effective technique" is simply b1tching.

As a very base example:

an F1 racing car cannot be driven by anyone, but if a novice takes the wheel and cannot have teh vehicle perform, does that make the vehicle any less of a powerful machine?

all techniques that one can use effectively are valid, and no techniques have a 100% hit rate. The stylist changes the pace and modality of the fight the techs are used in.

[SevenStar]

Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.

So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?

as I said before, most thai fighters fight in thai matches - or in venues where the sidekick isn't a major factor - like MMA. In a san shou venue where the side kick is there kick of choice, you would probably see them either start using it, or at the very least, training to defend it.

bjj has a bizilllion counters because of how things are applied. It really doesn't have a bizillion techniques, merely a bizillion variations. I probably know 20 different ways to apply an americana - it's not that each variation is a different technique so much as you have to apply it differently based on your opponent's position. grappling is VERY position sensitive. If you are in the wrong position, the technique may not work the way you are intending.

[MasterKiller]

grappling is VERY position sensitive. If you are in the wrong position, the technique may not work the way you are intending.

So I'm learning...

[Akhilleus]

OK so anyway...

I think MK is onto something that posture the person is in before initiating the kick will effect the amount of time it takes them to execute said kick...however, I haven't sparred many people that turn far enough to the side that their side kick would be as fast as their front kicks...

OK now why don't a lot of people use the side kick in muay thai? For one, many side kicks as seen in other martial arts involve skipping or sliding forward on the support leg...I was advised not to do this by the muay thai guys I've trained with, as someone could side step the kick then hit you as you are coming in, and that forward momentum from your kick is only increasing the damage done...in other words, they don't do jumping kicks for strategic reasons...

OK thats all good and well, but why don't they use a side kick without hopping? I don't know for sure, but in the muay thai tournaments I am familiar with, you can only catch the dude's leg then punch once, then you must let his leg drop, granted that can be a very damaging punch, but its not like in say san shou where you get spoints for a big slam or sweep off of a kick catch...one of the great things about a side kick is it is hard to catch...so since kick catches aren't as important in muay thai as in san shou, there isn't as much that the side kick offers that the teep cannot provide...

OK so why aren't they used very much in MMA? I don't know but you also don't see as many guys trying kick catches in MMA as in san shou...