New article in inside kung fu says that the wing chun legend that ti came from Ng Mui is false. Has anyone read it? ANy comments?
New article in inside kung fu says that the wing chun legend that ti came from Ng Mui is false. Has anyone read it? ANy comments?
Hello Word,
The story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is probably not accurate for a variety of reasons. I suggested in another post to pick up a copy of Complete Wing Chun. Wing Chun seems to have a history of being developed as a revolutionary method of fighting and seems to stem from the Red Boats. However, it is unlikely that we will ever know the full story. One reason given for the development of the Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun story is to protect the founders as the art was developed for fighting the government.
This is an interesting topic and we could go back and forth for a bit. It is important to have a grasp of where the art came from but don't let it's origins or stories of them destract you from training.
Peace,
Dave
I was very surprised by that article. Its hard to believe that all this time authentic Wing Chun teachers have been going by the Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mui story and have it be fake. What a shocker. I like the fake story more than the real story.
James Cama Sifu published the alternate story in 87 Inside Kung Fu. Fut Sao Gu Yee Chuan Was Known to all the surviving Five Elders and passed on through Fut Sao Wing Chun.
Hello SAM,
Just to set the record state that is only ONE version of the "alternative" histories. No one has a corner on the historical origins of Wing Chun or any other art.
The legend was most likely used to distract Officials from identifying the true leaders of Wing Chun as it seems to have been developed specifically to fight the government and even for assasination. There are many branches of the tree and each has its own version of the history. Each is right in the view of its own practicioners.
Peace,
Dave
If you check most styles decended from Shaolin and the Five Elders you will note a form with reference to Fut Sao or a link to Wing Chun Concepts. During revolutionary times Shaolins High Abbots taught the Ancient Chivralous fist concepts which were adapted to the specialized styles of the Five Elders. These concepts were also adapted to the five branches of Wing Chun which are; Ancient, Buddha Hand, Red Boat, Village, and Royal Family.
[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 03-29-2000).]
Hello Sam,
Please do not take offense but I would like you to elablorate more on the "Five Branches of Wing Chun" I am going to make an assumption that Yip Mans family falls under the Village branch but would be interested in the others as well. For example what are you referring to by "Royal Family" etc? I would also like some clarification as to most MA tracing their roots to the Shoalin Temple. I think that association with the Shoalin Temple was used to promote arts that had nothing to do with the Temple. Several arts were developed outside of the temple but it seems like almost everyone claims to have come from the temple. Again, I only wish to enlarge my understanding of this subject.
Peace,
Dave
Sam,
Which five elders? Ng Mui, Gee Sim, Bak Mei, Fung Do Duk and Mew Hing? Are you claiming that the five elders studied fut sao wing chun as well? These elders developed different systems. They may have similar southern principles but are you claiming their roots are found in fut sao wing chun?
J
Thanks for the imput guys. I am no way an historian. I am just relating things I heard or was told. The Five Elders were not taught Fut Sao Wing Chun but may have been taught its predisessor Gu Yee Chaun (Ancient Chivralous Fist). The concepts are the same and if you look at the history of Hung, Bak Mei, Choy Li, Chow, And others there is a mention of Fut Sao or Wing Chun. It makes sense that during revolutionary times the Five Elders combined their vast knowledge with the Ancient knowledge of Shaolin they came up with highly evolved concepts which they kept in their individual systems at advanced levels. What do you think? Royal Family Kung Fu was taught to the elite guards and Royal Family.
[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 03-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Sam (edited 03-29-2000).]
I heard a story once that Wing Chun was actually developed by a bunch of intermediate level kung fu guys who were hung out at the docks of south china, knew some other forms of kung fu, and wanted to create something so that they wouldn't get their collective a$ kicked by American and British boxers. According to Robert W Smith, kung fu started out with a de-emphasis on strikes to the head, as they were seen as lower class and not as deadly as strikes to the body.
How many open hand forms does wing chun have? i've only seen 3, which is why I have such a hard time reconciling it with being a very old fashioned form.
The techniques in the forms i've seen were not unique to Wing Chun, and they seemed pretty short.
I wouldn't be suprised if it turned out that the forms were created by the boxers in order to quickly teach a large number of people in a short time.
Furthermore, wasn't the credibility of Wing Chun one of the reasons behind the infamous "Roof Top Wars" that Bruce Lee was supposedly inolved in?
Just some thoughts...
Please don't mistake me for having any ill will towards Wing Chun, it's a good style with some good techniques, and I definitely will NOT underestimate a practisioner of Wing Chun if I am sparring one.
Sam,
You're mixing up the five elders and the five families. This depends on who you ask, but generally the five elders are Gee Sim, Ng Mui, Mew Hing, Bak Mei, and Fung Do Duk. These elders have been credited with many systems. Ng Mui has been credited more than I can remember but here's some general information. Gee Sim known for northern shaolin. He's also credited for teaching Hung Shi Gun (pick your choice of spelling) who later developed hung gar. Ng Mui is known for Plum Blossom fist (later devloped to wing chun). Mew Hing had own system. Bak Mei(white eyebrow) had own system. Fung Do Duk developed Bak Fu (white tiger).
The five families: Hung, Li, Lau, Mok, and Choy. Again, there are variations here too.
Most history/legend/myth comes from oral tradition so there are numerous versions. The five families had their own systems and some were combined to develop some of today's systems. Hung developed Hung Ga (translates to Hung family), Li Ga (Li family), ...you get the idea. Choy Li Fut combines Choy Ga and Li Ga with some Buddhist training (fut), possibly shaolin training.
My brain is mushing so I'm going to stop writing. I hope this information is helpful to someone. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Interesting discussion but assassination? Of who? Those that dont pay their gambling debts?
The red boat story seems a bit strange since many hakka have a genetic link to these "barbarians" they were running, er, plotting to overthrow.
Wing chun like alot of short hand southern systems seem based on health/spiritual exercises and someone made up martial application. I'd like to explain more but its a secret. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Anyone seen the wu tai chi chi kung form? I just looked at a book at the library on do in (japanese). Has a lot of those esoteric, reiki and mudra standing/kneeling meditations.
Its not a martial art, its not presented as a one shot kill art and not attached to some romanticism about criminal, parasitic societys overthrowing legitimate government and social systems.
I too will not comment to much on this subject as I have been told that what I know about this is secret but what do the principles and strategies revolve around?
What sort of times were around during most of Wing Chuns development?
Why did it flourish on the red boats?
I have more regurgitated info which seems to make sense but this is as far as I can comment.
Take it for what it's worth as I am only a beginner.
[This message has been edited by flavour54take2sameperson (edited 04-01-2000).]
The Hung Suen Wing Chun kung fu system dates back over 200 years to the Sil Lum Temple. As a result of the political atmosphere of the times, this branch of Wing Chun has never been taught outside it's direct lineage. Instead it was handed down in secrecy from family member to family member.
From 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled China in a period known as the Qing Dynasty. Early in the 1700's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Sil Lum Temples' rebellious activities and their continued development of the fighting arts. Under the decision to eliminate the threat of these rebels and thier leaders, the Manchurians attempted to exterminate the Sil Lum monks to prevent them from spreading their martial arts skills and knowledge. Eventually, both Sil Lum Temples were destroyed and burned.
According to Huen Suen tradition, prior to the destruction of the temples, a comprehensive martial art system was developed and known as Wing Chun.Wing Chun was formulated through generations of Sil Lum knowledge. Wing Chun was conducted under a silent code. This meant that in order to prevent abuse, it was passed down to only a few chosen disciples and was never documented.
With such a hidden past, we now heavily rely on the direct teachings of the elders for historical material. As told by teacher to student, two Sil Lum monks escaped the Manchurians massacres and were able to keep the Wing Chun system alive. One of these monks was the twenty second generation Sil Lum grandmaster. Yat Chum Dai Si. The other monks name was Chueng Ng. Before his death, grandmaster Yat Chum Dai Si passed on his high level of Wing Chun knowledge to Chueng Ng.
In order to keep his identity and background a secret from the Manchurians,Chueng Ngjoined the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The name was given to the organisation of talented stage performers who travelled in red boats.
Accomplished in kung fu and gymnastics, they formed their own organisation and stage names, the Red Boar Opera was Cheung Ng's safest refuge.
Cheung Ng became known in the opera troupe as Tan Sao Ng (Spread out arm Ng) from his skillful of the Wing Chun manuever "tan sao" to subdue others during challenges. His level of skill allowed him to use "tan sao" move to represent one thousand moves. He demonstrated that a basic technique sych as "tan sao" must be fully understood, in concept and application, prior to the next thousand techniques. After learning the next thousand techniques they became one again.
Harsh Manchurian actions such distrust among the people that they resulted in the formation of underground organisations or secret societies such as The Haeven and Earth society and the White Lotus society. Within a secret society, the identity of the leaders, members and activities were only known to a few within the society itself.
One of the Red Boat Opera troupe actors by the name of Hung Gun Biu(Red Bandanna Biu), was a secret society leader and brought Tan Sao Ng into the organisation. The safety of the opera troupe combined with the security of secret society allowed Ng to spread his Wing Chun knowledge in confidence.
As a trusted leader, Hung Gun Biu one of Ng's clsest disciples. However in order to protect the systems origin and and the identities of Yat Dai Si and Tan Sao Ng a story was created.(Hence the Ng Mui bit)
in the story Ng Mui teaches the system to a girl named Yim Wing Chun who's name happens to carry a different meaning."Yim" can be translated to protect or prohibit. The term Wing Chun refers to the Sil Lum Wing Chun Tong(Always Spring hall). Thus Yim Wing Chun was a code meaning the secret art of the Sil Lum Wing Chun Hall.
The system was passed on to other opera troupe members who had the obligation of keeping the system's history a secret. Based on their individual understanding and degree of training in Wing Chun, these disciples, all previously trained in other martial art styles, may have passed on their skills with inherently different emphasis.
Hung Gun Biu's lineage followed tradition of to pass down the system to family members only who took the traditional and ceremonial vow of secrecy. The system's lineage shows that Hung Gun Biu taught his relative Chueng Gung who passed it down to his great nephew, Wang Ting who taught his son, Dr Wang Ming, of Saiquan, China who taught the entire system with it's original concepts to only 4 disciples.
Boy I wish I had a scanner.
Most interesting discussion by far. The views here seems to come favor historically friendliness. I personally think that it is possible that NG Mui was not the creator of the all the branches of Wing Chun. Instead she could have "help" Yim Wing Chun to develope a fastfood version of Shaolin Kung FU for women's self defense. Evidences? The highly held chambered hands (protecting the "honor" of the ladies) and the ergonormically correct stances and hand strikes are still there to testify the genesis of the system. According to Dragon Sign's history, Ng Mui played a role in passing down the Dragon Sign's System which has a male founder. She could have "helped" or "inspired" many other styles, if we take into the account that she travels quite a bit. Knowledge is gendre neutral. Why is it not possible for a female practitioner to pass on Knowledge of combat to more than one system? Especially, during the turbulant time when the more pratitioners of martial arts there are , the better for the cause. One thing I know for sure is that by relating the story of Ng Mui's inspirations in both styles, I benefit more in practising the Dragon Sign system. Please forgive me if step on somebody's toes. I mean no disrespect.
Mantis108
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote