Trapping?

[Raatra]

What are everyones thoughts on trapping? is it effective? what are its strengths/weaknesses? any experiences with it?
and in trapping i mean the clasping, pressing or hooking of an arm or leg as to prevent its movement and create an opening in the attackers defense. this is very common in wing chun and im sure many others.

[Sihing73]

Hi Raatra,

Not sure where you get the fact that "clasping" is common in Wing Chun. Trapping is the momentary control of an opponent which results in the ability to strike him from a more advantagous position. If you grasp or clasp the opponent then you momentarily "trap" yourself with your own movement. This is not to say that grasping is never used nor that it is not a good method just not as common as you describe in Wing Chun. Most Wing Chun traps are done with a sticky force not reliant on the fingers for grasping. Hard to describe here but even when doing a lop on the dummy I was taught to use the wrist to control not the fingers. The fingers and hand only clasp lightly. Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Peace,

Dave

[Raatra]

i know what trapping is. i was just trying to be brief and chose bad descriptive terminology. anyways i figured anyone who knew about trapping would understand. the question wasnt what is trapping, rather its effectiveness. sorry for being unclear.

[FUJIYakumo]

I would say things like laap sao/inverted laap sao, etc are 'clasping' techniques.

you can do them with say, fingers encircling the forearm, or all over 'non-circling' around. (you picture that? hmm my bad exp...)

hmm mebbe grasping would be better.
"its raining laap sao".
sometimes, a good laap sao is a thing to
hang onto and make use of!

[Raatra]

guys please, the question was is trapping effective and have you had any experience using it. not, what is trapping.

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
Trapping is the momentary control of an opponent which results in the ability to strike him from a more advantagous position.[/quote]

I love this definition, I have never heard stated so clearly. Also, could you explain a little more about using the wrist to control instead of the fingers in a Lop Sau. I'm having a hard time grasping it.

Raatra,

I understand that that was off topic, so I'll try to get back on track. Yes, I think trapping is effective. I love doing traps in Chi Sao, but so far I have not been able to get it to work for me in free sparring. I attribute this mainly to my inability to establish a bridge in free sparring where I already have a bridge in Chi Sao. In free sparring I usually just come in chain punching and I haven't learned to transition from this to bridging and trapping. But I do believe that trapping is effective, although, probably more effective against someone grabbing at you than against a skilled boxer with fast hands.

[Raatra]

see that is also what i have experienced. trapping in chi sao is fantastic as well as in response to any grabbing techniques. the difficulty lies in free sparring against an opponent with, as you said, fast hands. now i know it is ridiculous to try to force trapping in a combat situation, but so much emphasis is placed on it. looking back at my combat experiences, if my trapping attempts ever failed it was because of not being 100% committed to it and not being in a more appropriate position to attempt it. i do think that trapping is very effective at close range combat however. and i think that was my problem. i was always just a little too far away in attempting my trapping techniques. you have to stick to the guy. its a close range style, so get close. thats my opinion.

[Sihing73]

Highlander,

Thanks for your kind words. However, if the description is good I am afraid I probably stole it from one of my past instructors, I am not smart enough to come up with it myself [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

As to grasping with the wrist rather than the fingers; I need to think of how to explain this in this forum. One way which may help you to understand is to apply a lop against the dummy arm and do not close the fingers but instead use the underside of the palm and or wrist to apply pressure. Keep the fingers open and relaxed. Another method to illustrate this concept is found directly in the dummy form. Think of the section where you apply fook sau to the inside and outside of the dummy arms. You will be applying pressure with the wrist rather than grasping.

FUJIYakumo,

I understand your perspective and Lop can indeed be done with a grasping or clasping manner. Both of these are the most common methods of applying this technique.

Raatra,

COnsider that to trap an opponent does not require you to tie up his hands. You could side-step his punch and apply a Pak or other technique to the outside of his shoulder while striking him with your other hand. This would still qualify as a trap as he would be unable to counter you, at least momentarily [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]. As to dealing with someone with quick hands; remember in Wing Chun one does not "chase the hands". Instead one should strike to center. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Another method of trapping the oppoenet is to use footwork to place yourself in a position from which you can strike him but he can not strike you. Sometimes you can do this without even contacting him physically, now this is a high form of "trapping" [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Sorry for the length time is getting short and I am trying to answer as many at one time.

Thanks,

Dave

[marcw1]

in regards to trapping it you are right in
your description of it, but there is more it
is a play to control your oppponents center
and it is nothing if there is no forward
pressure as you intercept your opponets
hand. there are specific drill that are
called, (yuen fat sau) "fast Hands" which
deal with the concept of trapping from diffrent positions of your enemys hands.

[Sihing73]

marcw1,

So if I understand you correctly you are saying one must provide forward pressure in order to execute trapping.

"and it is nothing if there is no forward
pressure as you intercept your opponets
hand."

So, is it still trapping if you do not touch your opponent but, by footwork, place yourself in a position from you can attack him but he cannot attack you? Also, is trapping limited to just the hands? Also what if you decide to apply your movements very softly with sticking and try not to give your opponent any energy to deal with?

I am not trying to be smart but there is alot to this if one looks deeply. One of my students is a bit larger than I am. He was a black belt in Shotokan and did another version of Wing Chun for over two years before we met. Anyhow, I am able to nullify him with ease. Sometimes without even touching him. When I do touch him he reports that I "feel like silk" he feels nothing from me he just gets hit and does not know how it happened. Yet I am able to hit him and he is in a position from which he can not hit me in return unless he moves. I consider this a trap. To me this is what I am going for. I want to hit him but don't want him to feel anything which he can use against me. By the time my opponent "feels" me I hope it is too late [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Of course my instructor lets me feel his energy all of the time. Unfortunately it is at the end of his fist LOL

Peace,

Dave

[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 08-19-2000).]

[benny]

ive never had to use traps in a fight. you should never go into a fight trying to trap anyone. thats a big mistake, chi sao is different then fighting. you should just need either punches, tan, along those lines. traping is only for the times both hands are stuck. but ive never had to use them.
see ya

[Sihing73]

Hi benny,

Chi Sau is indeed different than a real fight. Still many of the things developed can transfer over to the real deal.

As to your assertion that you only need punches and Tan etc; this will work great if you are figthing a low level opponent but not against someone who knows what they are doing. Maybe, that is why Wing Chun has so many other techniques to choose from [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

As to saying that you never go into a fight trying to trap someone that is fine. Wing Chun teaches one to react to what the opponent gives you. If an opportunity for a trap is given then I assure I will take it. As to your statement "trapping is for the times both hands are stuck" I think I would find it hard to apply a trap if both of my hands were stuck, maybe I would then be the victim of a trap [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[benny]

i meant more engaged then stuck

[vingtsunstudent]

sihing 73
i know benny personally & feel that he may have just mixed his words up.
as to-
As to your assertion that you only need punches and Tan etc; this will work great if you are figthing a low level opponent but not against someone who knows what they are doing. Maybe, that is why Wing Chun has so many other techniques to choose from .
i have to disagree, yes vt does have a lot more technics but i have personally seen many guys who know what they are doing get knocked down by very bacic technics.(and also win with them)if bacic technics didn't work in most situations why would we bother training them so often & not just skip to the more advanced ones,in most cases again are we not always training to fight someone who is better than us & yet again the most basic things are what we practice the most.
sorry if we disagree but from my personal experiences that's just my opinion.

[Sihing73]

vingtsunstudent,

I think that perhaps you misunderstand my post. If you read any posts I have placed in the past you will find that I always advocate a strong foundation in the basics. I also believe that the basic techniques are more than adequate for many circumstances. What I was trying to get across is that the basics are just that and that when facing one of a more advanced level they may not be enough. Also, if you tend to rely on only a few techniques you may find a situation wherein they may not work, at least not without some modification.

I definetly am not trying to put anyone down and if that is how I came across I appoligize. Many people think of Wing Chun as limited to the step forward with chain punches. If you are unable to adapt to someone that will not accept this approach but steps to the side etc or closes to elbow range then you better have an alternative.

Having said all of this I want to make it clear that I feel it is better to have a firm grasp of the basics rather than a large number of techniques one has not mastered. Still the more advanced techniques are there for a reason, to be used when needed.

Peace,

Dave