Seven Star's Big Broadsword Form

[taichi4eva]

I found some pictures of a Big Broadsword Form practiced in the Seven Star Praying Mantis lineage. I wanted to ask if this form looked legitimate or not.

http://www.martialartmantis.com/thebigbroadsword.html

It is interesting to note that on his website, there are pictures of him "practicing with the Japanese sword." From the pictures, the form seems very Japanese, probably contrived by the Sifu himself.

Any opinions? Does anybody here practice with such a weapon?

[Frogman]

Looks like Master Chow likes to travel.

[MightyB]

I've learned a two handed broadsword form in 7 star. It doesn't look anything like those pictures.

From what I heard, It is a fairly new form created around WW2. Rumor has it that it was created as a means for people to defend themselves from the samurai swords that the Japanese soldiers liked to use.

[Chief Fox]

I've learned a two handed broadsword form in 7 star. It doesn't look anything like those pictures.

From what I heard, It is a fairly new form created around WW2. Rumor has it that it was created as a means for people to defend themselves from the samurai swords that the Japanese soldiers liked to use.

It does look like a katana form. It looks like Master Chow studied in Japan and also practices the Japanese sword. Maybe he's taken some 7 star elements and created his own katana form.

[MantisifuFW]

TC4E,

It does indeed look like a Katana form. However I hasten to add that Master Chow is in good company indeed by including the techniques if not the weapon in his practice.

Ming Dynasty General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587) is famous for capturing a couple of thousand Japanese swordsmen, (pirates) and interviewing them for their sword techniques, (tourture). The result was the Miao Dao. My conversations with Chinese sword historians finds that they regard the Miao Dao as a Chinese/Japanese weapon and the Zha Ma Dao as more of a pure Chinese weapon in terms of a Chinese two-handed sword. The history of the Sern Sao Do (aka Da Dao) is linked by many to the Zha Ma Dao though I have heard arguements that those techniques borrowed from Japanese swordsmanship also.

I guess those of Sifu Chow's line would have to enlighten us as the the inclusion of the Katana in their practice and the role it plays as either a stand alone weapon or as cross training for the other more traditional Chinese weapons.


Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell

[MightyB]

I'm referring to the 9 ring broadsword as the Two handed broadsword form that I know.

This is a link to a sword that is very similar to a katana but is Chinese in origin and I think is used for Tai Chi.

http://www.hdmartialart.com/proddetail.asp?prod=hctcsd

[MantisifuFW]

MightyB,

The Two Handed Nine Ring Broadsword, (Jiu Huan Da Dao), is certainly in the lineage of weapons that would include the Military Two-Handed Sword and the techniques would certainly apply. To include it in your practice would be to explore another facet of this facinating weapon and would be technically appropriate.

However, looking specifically at historical accuracy, the Military Two-Handed Sword Form, "The Military In the Midst of the Enemy Two-Handed Sword" taught by Wong Hon-Fun, (Jun Zhong Da Dao) was, at least in my research, not ever done with the Jiu Huan Da Dao. The reason was that the rings would cause noise that would keep the troops from closing into the midst of the enemy at night and then engaging in close-quarters combat; a tactic that gave the Chinese military their first victory of the war against a better-equiphed Japanese force in the Battle of Shanghai, among others.

Additionally, the form created for the military was, apparently, taken from a much more technically demanding and varied set of techniques taught for this weapon at the Qingwu. This set, sadily, seems to have been lost as far as I can tell from my inquiries in Shanghai. In order to explore this weapon further, I would recommend that you look into other 9 Ring sword forms of other styles too. The tactics go far beyond that in the military form.

Steve Cottrell

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello Steve ,
The Jun Zhong Da Dao form you mentioned is that the one that is based on far older Pu Dao techniques but adapted for the smaller handled Da Dao ?

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

As I have heard it, the category of Da Dao can be found to include Guan Dao Pu Daoand many others. The common requirement is that nearly always the handle of a Da Dao was at least as long as the blade of the weapon. Of course the military Da Dao is an exception, (for ease of carring by a soldier), as is the present day rendition of the Jiu Huan Da Dao.

So my answer, in a lesser sense, would be yes. But the techniques of the Da Dao having a shorter handle than either the Guan Dao or the Pu Dao would be far more varied. As to what came first, a Da Dao used as a sword or a Da Dao used as a halberd I will leave to others with a greater archeological background.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[buddhapalm]

Dear MantissifuFW,
Could you tell me more about this lost two handed saber form from Ching Wu. Do you know its name ? Any other info about it.

My system has a two handed saber form that is very very likely from the Ching Wu Society of Canton in around 1920's. Probably about a 50% chance that it is. I am still conducting my research on the matter, but any knowledge you have of this and any other 1920/30's Ching wu material would be most appreciated.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

teleka@pacbell.net

[MantisifuFW]

Buddahpalm,

My information comes from a couple of old texts that reference it and talking to folks in Shanghai. No one I spoke to had seen the set or performed it themselves. I do know that it was the 20s-30s timeframe you spoke of and that there was only one. It was reportedly longer than the military form, (32 postures) and had many more sophisticated movements and cutting actions. That is all I have in general terms.

I would doubt that there would be a separate set created for that branch alone so the odds are in your favor that it is the set or a version of it.

If you don't mind I have a few questions about the techniques in the set that I will ask off list.

I wish you well in your research.

Steve Cottrell

[buddhapalm]

Dear MantissifuFW,
No guarantee that it is from Ching Wu for sure, but I have a strong belief it may be.
My Sigung learned from Ma Kin Fung of the Lohan Moon style in Canton back in the 1930's. Ma Kin Fung learned Lohan Moon from Sun Yu Fung in the Keung Wah Ching Wu in Canton.
My Sigung (Dea Bak Do) learned from Ma Kin Fung, yet only 3 forms in our system are found in other branches of Ma Kin Fungs followers. Also I have an old photo of my Sigung wearing a Ching wu style white kung fu jacket ... but without the patch. So I am guessing that much of my forms come from pre-1940's Ching Wu. Either he learned it directly, or he learned indirectly from Ma Kin Fung.
Our two handed saber form is called "Chun Wong Dao" or in English Emperor Chun's (Chun Chi Wongs) Saber.
We also have:
Erlang Quan, Wu Song Breaks Chains, Flower Fist, Roc Fist, Angry Waves Fist (Kong Lahn Fist), Wind Demon Fist (Fung Mor Kuen), Big Buddha Palm, Eight Gate Pole, Eight Gate Saber, Clear Wind Guan Dao (Ching Fung Dai Dao), Seven Star Word, Moon Tooth Shovel, Luk Hap Plum Blossom Spear, Luk Hap Yin Yang Pole, Shaolin Secret Pole (AKA Earth Demon Pole).

Please let me know if any of these names coincide with any names you stumble upon in your path.

Kindest Regards

Buddhapalm

[MantisifuFW]

Buddahpalm,

thank you for your generous offering of information. I will copy it and take it with me next time I go to China or have the chance to speak to those there.

I have pm'ed you concerning a possible avenue of research we could do to determine the origin of the set you mentioned. Please let me know off list what you think.

Again my sincere thanks,

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Additionally, the form created for the military was, apparently, taken from a much more technically demanding and varied set of techniques taught for this weapon at the Qingwu. This set, sadily, seems to have been lost as far as I can tell from my inquiries in Shanghai. In order to explore this weapon further, I would recommend that you look into other 9 Ring sword forms of other styles too. The tactics go far beyond that in the military form.
Steve Cottrell

Sifu Cottrell,

I am curious as to where you heard that the form "Gwun Jung Dai Doe" as passed on by Wong Hon Funn was taken from a Jing Mo set. According to WHF's written introduction for this form, he states that Law Gwong Yuk created this set based on dai doe techniques (not a specific form) of Fahn Yuk Tung. What is similar to your theory however is that WHF does state that LGY simplified the techniques and took the most effective or applicable techniques to create this set so it is only a subset of techniques from FYT. According to this article then, the form was not derived from a Jing Mo dai doe set since FYT did not ever teach at Jing Mo. I would be interested in hearing or seeing evidence that states the origins of this form to be otherwise.

Vance Young
YM

[MightyB]

Young Mantis's post is pretty much what I was told about the form.

____

Also, I never learned it but there is a two man set for the cern sau do against a spear that some of my si hing know.