Wall Bag

[anerlich]

Kenneth chung, frowns on anything other than sand and he has been practicing for 40 years, without becoming a cripple =)

Opinions vary between Sifus, I guess, as does the tolerance of the bones of the hand for impact. My advice came from a senior Australian MA who has also been training for over four decades. Not with the same profile, perhaps, but I'd imagine equivalent skill and knowledge levels.

Does KC hit the wall bag full power all the time? Did he do that when he started out or did he work up to it? What do you do?

[stuartm]

Hi guys,

For what its worth i tell my students to use dried peas or rice initially, then on to soft sand after 3 months when they understand the basics of the punching structure.

You should be able to hit the bag fairly hard without any long term damage, assuming you form the correct fist shape (surprising how many people still struggle with this) and use your stance efficiently.

What i tell my students never to do is:

a) elbow the bag - the force will be redirected straight into your shoulder
b) kick the bag with power - force will go straight into the lower spine - not good

I was once advised by a former teacher that you could using ball bearings after a while . IMHO, this is not a great idea unless you want to permanently damage your bones and increase your chances of arthritis.

Ken Chung may have no damage, but he presumably was tauight in a structured manner when he was first learning under LS, and is a pretty big bloke by the looks of it with strong fists. The same rule does not apply to all. If your students have any weaknesses in their hands, they can always wear light bag mitts, or tape their hands the boxing way, focusing the bandages around the weaker areas such as the wrist.

All the best, Stu

[KPM]

Kung Lek claims that hitting sand just compacts and feeds all the force back into your hands. Is there other media in a wing chun wallbag like cloth, beads, and other absorbing materials that would allow you to punch it without damaging your hands? I would tend to think so, as it seems to be pretty common for wing chun people to punch sand-filled wallbags with their bare fists. Thanks in advance.

Dried beans! Mung beans are pretty traditional. I've used just plain old dried black beans and they work fine.

Keith

[sunkuen]

I heard the really hardcore guys are using cans of baked beans. Libbys deep browners are the best!!!

[Fajing]

I heard the really hardcore guys are using cans of baked beans. Libbys deep browners are the best!!!

NICCEEE!!

[nojack]

My makiwara striking wall bag is filled with rice, that's good enough for me.

[The_Sensei]

Opinions vary between Sifus, I guess, as does the tolerance of the bones of the hand for impact. My advice came from a senior Australian MA who has also been training for over four decades. Not with the same profile, perhaps, but I'd imagine equivalent skill and knowledge levels.

Does KC hit the wall bag full power all the time? Did he do that when he started out or did he work up to it? What do you do?

I do a thousand punches at a time, for the first 900 or so I use 1/4 power in a very relaxed state of mind concentrating on sinking into the bag rather then forcing my fist into it and the last 100 I use as much power as I can without rocking. This process usually takes me about 10-12 minutes. I maintain my SLT base the whole time. Eventually you actually crush the sand into even smaller particles and the bag actually becomes like a rock, when that starts to happen change the sand.

Hope it helps friend =)

[mexenergy]

Ken does hit the bag @ full force. In the beginning it's not suggested because you can tear the skin on your knuckles & then you have to wait for them 2 heal b4 tryin again. Start out light & eventually your hands will become conditioned to strike harder. We practise w/#10 canvas.

[kj]

Hi Stu,

Ken Chung may have no damage, but he presumably was tauight in a structured manner when he was first learning under LS,

Thankfully for him and for us.

and is a pretty big bloke by the looks of it with strong fists.

If you have the opportunity to see and feel for yourself not only his punch but how he produces it, I think it would likely alter your perception of what's happening. If there is anything that Ken literally and figuratively pounds into us, it is to avoid the patent use of strength, punches being no exception. One of his keenest regrets is that the appearance of his physical frame leads to frequent misgivings by casual onlookers. His fists, and arms for that matter, are very relaxed and soft in action.

The same rule does not apply to all.

I'm okay with that as a generalization.

Nonetheless, Ken's punch and my punch distinctly are governed by the same rules. Admittedly, he adheres to those rules a Hades of a lot better than I.

If your students have any weaknesses in their hands, they can always wear light bag mitts, or tape their hands the boxing way, focusing the bandages around the weaker areas such as the wrist.

I have to agree that protection is indeed appropriate with some punching methods. It may even be sage advice to the audience in question. Depending on one's punching methods, respective instruction, and purpose in hitting the sandbag, padding and bandages may be highly appropriate. The method as taught by Ken just doesn't happen to be one of those.

Learning to deliver in a substantial way without damaging your own naked hand, wrist or elbow is one of the purposes in our practice. Punching the stuffing out of the bag is a remote consideration in comparison to others. We are more concerned with such things as learning proper placements, alignments, how to "send" and produce "long and lasting" energy, to allow the bag to fully absorb however much or little we are capable to deliver. The bag also provides us with tactile feedback through the bridge and throughout the entire body structure. Hitting it hard is incidental, and when properly accomplished (by our narrow definition of course, LOL), primarily the result of getting other more fundamental things right.

If someone has a weakness in the form of injury or abnormality, something beyond light protection is probably in order, e.g., some form of remediation or alternative practice. If we (i.e., me and mine) damage our hands or even break skin, we are instructed to lay off the bag until they heal. We are moreover instructed to be careful not to damage them in the first place.

There used to be a clip on the net somewhere of Ken demonstrating his sandbag training. I don't know if it's still out there; if I manage to find it I'll post a link. Naturally some who haven't met him (or someone who performs similarly), will think he's powering the punches with his big guns.

Not saying my way is the best way or the only way, rather just to clarify a bit on what we do and offer a little something as to why. Plus it's nice for something to join in on for a change.

Regards,
- kj

P.S. mexenergy is correct; Ken does hit the bag full force. Just not in the way that some might presume.

[sunkuen]

I maintain my SLT base the whole time.

Hope it helps friend =)

This is a fine way to use the bag but if you get a little bored you can (as i'm sure some of you know) throw some footwork into the routine. Stepping into the bag with whatever footwork your Sifu is teaching you and doin' yer little 'straight blast' can be good. Varying degrees of rotation of the fist on the initial (or all) of your punches can also be good. There are other variations but this keep ya busy for now (if you choose to try them).

p.s. this isn't really for you sensei, with that handle i'm sure your already doing these and more.

[anerlich]

I do a thousand punches at a time, for the first 900 or so I use 1/4 power in a very relaxed state of mind concentrating on sinking into the bag rather then forcing my fist into it and the last 100 I use as much power as I can without rocking. This process usually takes me about 10-12 minutes. I maintain my SLT base the whole time. Eventually you actually crush the sand into even smaller particles and the bag actually becomes like a rock, when that starts to happen change the sand.

So you work up to it slowly, and punch as hard as you can while working on keeping correct structure. Working on correct structure and progressive conditioning, as I suggested.

Hope it helps friend =)

I was asking out of interest on what other practitioners do, not seeking guidance. And I was actually more interested in what Ken himself did, which KJ has answered with her usual excellence. But thanks anyway.

[anerlich]

Here is what one real wing chun master replied: Well ... clowns have a place in this world.

A statement of which you, my friend, are living proof.

[william]

I have recently installed a wall bag at home.

Was wondering if anyone would care to share some techniques they practice or wall bag training regimes?

Or some good things to practice, and perhaps somethings to be cautious of?

Any techs to practice or advice would be much appreciated,

W

[Fajing]

I have recently installed a wall bag at home.

Was wondering if anyone would care to share some techniques they practice or wall bag training regimes?

Or some good things to practice, and perhaps somethings to be cautious of?

Any techs to practice or advice would be much appreciated,

W

Punching It's good to try and get closer to the wall bag as your arms, knuckles, punching power, technique develops. You certainly want to increase your power at a closer range. MAKE SURE you don't hang your bag on a wall space with no support beams behind it. You can practice punches, chops, elbows, palm strikes...whatever works for you. Should help toughen the skin and increase striking power if you work at it regularly. Safer than punching a Mook Jong!

[Phil Redmond]

Wall bags are OK but you need to hit something that you can issue your force into that moves. Too much training on a wall bag can hinder your issuance of force since the bag is against a........wall.
(waiting for the rebuttals )
Phil