Wall Bag

[whippinghand]

After a plaster wall, you can move up to brick wall. Or just hit your wooden dummy. That's much better than a wall bag. There's too much give in a wall bag, and the bag won't tell you if you're punching wrong.

[OdderMensch]

Once again almost the exact oposite of what i learned!

:D

Where did you learn from? I come from the Yip Man family and have seen from Lueng Ting and Ku Sang both from my Sifu Steve Cotrell and from Sifu Allen Lamb.

I should note that I'm still only a couple of years into the system, and i am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious where you info comes from.

As for wall bags I have two that are filled with sand. I've moved recently and have not found a good place to hang them in my new pad, but i want them one abouve the other with the top of the top bag at about neck hieght, and the other attached to the bottom. This way I can practice "sueng kuen" properly. Idealy they would ne on a brick or masonary wall.

[whippinghand]

I don't need to state my lineage to back me up. Information is information. That is... until it becomes knowledge.

[EmptyCup]

How can one punch with full force against a brick wall without breaking his knuckles or hand?

If you can punch fully without injuring yourself, then you must be a weak puncher :)

Or you are not punching fully as to avoid injury. in that case, why not punch something which you can use full force?

Wall punching is not necessary. A bag is fine for wing chun purposes.

If a person needs something to tell him when he's punching properly, then hitting a dummy won't do him any good as any person advanced enough to tell whether they are hitting the dummy right or wrong can obviously know enough to understand if he can punch properly or not i.e. correct posture and form.

Start with a wall bag, progress to a hanging bag, then do dummy last. Starting on the dummy before you're advanced enough leads to bad habits.

[whippinghand]

Based on EVERYTHING that you have suggested, are you CERTAIN that you can put a man to the ground?

"Full force" is a martial art illusion.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the idea that hitting a wall bag is less advantageous than hitting a wall. Hitting a wall is asking for trouble, IMHO and no one I know would advocate hitting the dummy directly. Come on, are you trying to develope your hands to strike through armour? ;)

I know of karate people who used to do what Whipping Hand is advocating. Most of them have less then full use of their hands now. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a wall bag. It will correct the structure of your punch and it provides just enough cushion for you to strike. The wall is still providing the resistence and the energy will be fed back to you to a degree.

Perhaps part of the problem is that Whipping Hand seems to think that the power for his punch comes from the conditioning of his knuckles, at least this is how it seems to me. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong :D The power in the Wing Chun punch comes from the structure. The proper alignment of your elbow and the stance. Conditioning of the knuckles, at least to the degree of striking a wall without any protection is uneccessary and a bit foolish. No matter how well conditioned your hand is, there are still many small bones and ligiments which can be easily damaged. Take a look at professional boxers. Do you see Mike Tyson practicing hitting using the wall or a heavy bag? But hey, I guess these guys, who can probably hit a heck of a lot harder then most of us, really don't know what they are doing.

Sometimes I love reading some of the stuff put forth on these boards. I am not sure whether some of the people actually believe what they say or think it impresses the rest of us. Listen, I can introduce anyone here to some real hard-core trainers and none of them, NONE OF THEM, would tell you to hit a wall with your bare fist!!!!

It is all fine and good to talk about different things but lets remember the world we live in. It is not commonplace to need to punch through someones armour today. Besides, if you look at the history of Wing Chun it seems pretty obvious that strength and power were not the most essential ingredients for success, seems to me power comes secondary to efficiency and senstitivity. but hey, maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years :rolleyes:

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

Perhaps you have.

[OdderMensch]

;) just kidding

Im not looking for you to back yourself up or depending on liniage to suport your statment, i am just intrested in the different branchs of our system.

On line I speak for myself, I expect you do the same.

Also if I knew your "lineage" then i could check out with other sources(web sites, books, other practicioners) about how and why you do/train as you say. I dont think that "lineage" is of great import, but it is useful information.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

How many "real" fights have you been in? Or are you just basing your views on what you were "taught"?

I KNOW I can put a person on the ground, sometimes even with just one punch :eek: I have done it. I also know that I can be PUT ON THE GROUND, sometimes with one punch :p

I have had the privilege of training with quite a few different people and I have to say that your assertions seem to be slightly different to most people out there. I can respect your not wishing to state your lineage, too many hide behind that, but perhaps it would be helpful if you let others get an idea of where your ideas come from. Hopefully not videos or books ;)

Seriously, any of us on the internet and in this medium can say anything we want to. None of us knows if the other is blowing smoke or not. However, once met in person all of the "theory" will give way to reality. I have said before I am not that tough but I know that Wing Chun, as I practice it works. I know that the system and the methods put forth by most on this board are reliable and will work. I also know that it is easier to mask ones lacking behind "deep" philosophical sayings without really answering the question.

You may be the best Wing Chun guy out there. However, from some of the replies you have made I do not find that likely. People on this board post from such sources as; Augustine Fong, William Cheung, Alan Lamb, Kenneth Chung, Leung Ting, Simon Lay, Samual Kwok, Yip Ching and Yip Chun and many others. Are we to really believe that all of these people are wrong and your method is right? Do you have any way of backing up your claims?

Peace,

Dave

[EmptyCup]

I agree with sihing73

Whipping Hand-

No Wing Chun lineage teachers one to punch walls. That violates wing chun's principles. It's something that is brute force and hard training. wing Chun relies on technique.

If you want to train that way, then fine, but it's not part of the Wing Chun style. And unless you state your lineage, saying you know it and don't need to back it up means your words are basically worthless because you could say it's from the secret lineage of Wing Chun or something to that effect.

If you say something as advice to people who don't know, then expand and elaborate, not remain secretive or cryptic. If you want to guard your information, why write anything at all? Bringing up points in one-liners and not defending your position because you feel you are right doesn;t help anybody at all. You may very well be right but I think you already knew that :)

The point of this forum is to share information, not prove to yourself how right you are. Prove it to others or at least attempt to...otherwise why say anything? The point is to convince others if you have good helpful knowledge, not feel superior and all-knowing.

Just my bit.

[EmptyCup]

In Toronto, there are many Wing Chun sifus, most of them established and famous.

Ho Kam Ming, Sunny Tang, Stewart Fung, etc, etc

There are also William Cheung version teachers downtown (where you stated you learned)

No Wing Chun teacher in Toronto I have heard of teachers your principles or theories. My teacher had private lessons with Yip Man and was given permission from si-gung to teach. Same with many Hong Kong masters such as the late Wong Shun Leung, Yip man's sons Ip Ching and Ip Chun, and other elders such as the late Moy Yat, Leung Sheung, etc... None of them teach your methods.

Even Leung Ting's version and William cheung's version are different. Another famous teacher Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming (now based in Toronto) is different than your views.

And Yuen Kay San Gu Lao, Po Fa Lien wing chun lineages definitely don't teach your methods.

I am very curious as to who you learned from. I am concerned that you might have been duped into thinking what you learned was Wing Chun when it might have been something entirely different :)

[dzu]

I use the wall bag to practice my punching because of the force it returns to my structure. This force requires me to root properly and stay relaxed or the force stays inside my system and affects me by shocking my head. I practice using YJKYM and punch first without shifting and then with some slight shifting. It's filled with rice and beans. We refill it whenever it starts to sag.

I use a 6' hanging heavy bag to practice uprooting upon contact with all of my strikes (punch, palm, kick, etc.)

I use the dummy to develop power transfer through my bridges and to make sure that the power is directed to the center.

regards,

Dzu

[whippinghand]

You guys have somehow stuck it in your head that when I said that I hit a wall, I use full force. Remember Sihing73, in my e-mail to you, I wrote that I am very particular about my words, so read the m carefully. I did not say full-force. I also stated that "full force is an illusion". What do you think that means?

EmptyCup, who are you to determine what is part of the Wing Chun style? And who are the names that you stated to define it? Perhaps you need your lineage to back you up. I do not. Nor do I need to defend myself. That is the essense of Wing Chun. I have provided much information on this forum. I don't need to back it up. If you want to explore what I say, power to you, if not, power to me. It's power to me either way. If what I do is not Wing Chun by your standards or everyone else's. Call it what you will. It works.

Wing Chun is not defined by the method you train it. It's in the end result. So if I choose to hit a wall, or hit a sand bag, if the end result is an aligned punch, then success. However, hitting a wall will get you there faster. And it will prove to be a more effective punch with fruitful results, not like a "full-force" punch.

[EmptyCup]

I think it is you who needs to read my message carefully as you clearly missed the whole point of it.

Your answer is no answer at all. You merely enforced the contents of my message to you.

Drop the self-satisfaction, self-gratifying and ego-boosting stuff and maybe your words might have usefulness. Until then, you're only fooling yourself :rolleyes:

[EmptyCup]

forgot to reply to your question because I didn't know it was directed at me...

I have dropped people to the ground many times. But I'm never certain I can do it beforehand. Nobody can know if they will win a fight until the fight is over. Certainty leads to harsh reality... :)

Many people who have lost to me were certain of their victory until I showed them otherwise. Certainty means jack. Reality is what counts.