Internal Arts Designed for Clinch and Grappling

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Fellas,

Appart from Yau Kung Mun what other Internal art forms are designed for close range clinch, takedowns and grappling?

FT

[Palmer]

I have never heard of Yao Kung Mun until now but out of the three classic Nejia arts i have trained in two (Hsing-i and Tai Chi.) Even from what I have seen and heard about Bagua I would say that all three contain methods for dealing with the clinch/takedowns/ and grappling. There are tons of throws as well as close range sensitivity work for dealing with the clinch and grappling as well as striking with the body (Head/shoulder/hip etc) in close quarters.
Whether someone emphasizes this in their practice and views training these as a goal is a whole different question.

[Hau Tien]

I have never heard of Yao Kung Mun until now but out of the three classic Nejia arts i have trained in two (Hsing-i and Tai Chi.) Even from what I have seen and heard about Bagua I would say that all three contain methods for dealing with the clinch/takedowns/ and grappling. There are tons of throws as well as close range sensitivity work for dealing with the clinch and grappling as well as striking with the body (Head/shoulder/hip etc) in close quarters.
Whether someone emphasizes this in their practice and views training these as a goal is a whole different question.

I'd have to agree with Palmer... I've trained in Liu He Ba Fa, Xing Yi, and Bagua... all three have what you're asking about... it's just a matter of what range you're in.

[scholar]

Wu Chien-ch'uan style T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

We train throws, footsweeps, locks, breaks and groundfighting strategies in addition to more conventional strikes and kicks.

"The floor is your friend, it will always be there for you."

"Why should I hit somebody with my fist when I can hit them with the floor?"

www.wustyle.com

[Kuanti]

Scholar,

I am also a Wu stylist (well try to be) over in the UK (www.cotswoldwu.co.uk). I just wondered what methods you had in mind. I only know of a few application that can be done from the ground. Do you guys do specific ground fighting training?

Many thanks for any info
K

You can PM me if you like

[scholar]

Hi Kuanti,

I've been a student of Sifu Eddie Wu since 1992, and had started training Wu style T'ai Chi with one of his senior students 5 years before that. I correspond occasionally with Tim Price Sitai in Oxfordshire, you probably know him.

The groundwork we get into is something that is usually only done after about 5 years of pushing hands (unless the student is younger that 25 or so, then it is safe to start earlier), and then only with "volunteers" crazy enough to want to endure the suffering involved in the full martial education process. First, the student has to learn to fall from any direction without being hurt. At this point, the first three throws are introduced: White Crane, Repulse Monkey and Single Lotus, and then the counters to these throws. Then, we learn to fall from various heights; from chairs, tables, over chairs, tables, etc., as well as incorporating takedowns and locks into freestyle pushing hands. Then it is safe to start working more complicated and combination throws. Snake Creeps Down, Needle at Sea Bottom, Double Lotus. Also, catching punches and kicks in midair as we jump to dislocate the opponent's joints; following an opponent who has fallen or has jumped out of the way by tumbling, righting ourselves in a hurry, and using those principles in attacking from the ground. Then mixing those application principles in single and multiple opponent and weapons strategy scenarios.

As you can see, it is a very involved study. The Wu family have been justly famous for a deep and sophisticated knowledge of how to apply soft principles and acceleration into wrestling and groundfighting, and we are fortunate to be able to learn from them, I'd say. These are things that are trained routinely in our Asian and North American schools, and I'm sure Sifu will introduce these things to the relatively younger UK branches when the time is right.

My Tai Sihing has a new website at www.wustyledetroit.com that may interest you.

Cheers!

[fiercest tiger]

I teach all ranges although YKM internal forms are purely clinch, throws and Grappling submissions. We do hands and legs on pads and then move into the stand up wrestling, joint locks and leg sweeps etc.

We leave the ground fighting untill the students are godo at stand up fighting which include the above.

How much time do you guys do on the floor and how well do u think you could go against BJJ floor?

FT

[scholar]

I don't want this to turn into a "I'm better than them" kind of thing, so I can only speak generally about strategies. There will always be someone better than me out there, after all...

The philosophy on the subject of opponents is that I don't care what style they do. They aren't a style, they are arms, legs, heads, and torsos. We train to get into the mindset that they aren't better than us, they aren't worse than us, they are exactly the same; human. Our mantra is: "Not overconfident, not underconfident. Confident."

I'm probably not going to know a person's style if I am going to really fight them. I am however going to do my best to get to an area they aren't comfortable with. Every situation is different, and our training is to help us stay comfortable in the most extreme of worst case scenarios. I've been trained with that mindset for two decades now, and I've been interested in the martial since day one. We train and train and train at all ranges, short, medium and long. If I meet someone whose training is more complete than mine, who can cover their posterior better than I can, then I'm in trouble. If they can't, then they are in trouble.

[fiercest tiger]

Who is talking who is better? Im asking who does what and how you train, im after some info on Internal arts with grappling and clinch work, how you train it. I think the internal arts are the key thats all.

The person is the style!

FT

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Fiercest Tiger,

From what I know, the Tian Style Yin Yang Bagua Zhang based most of the physical techniques on twisting, grappling and breaking joints, to the degree that virtually every moves involves breaking something. But very, very few people know the system properly and even less teaching it out. Although I find it one of the most effective systems, I didn't want to learn it because I find it too "violent".
(yes, I'm a softie ;-))

Cheers,
John

[hung-le]

Hi Kuanti,

I've been a student of Sifu Eddie Wu since 1992, and had started training Wu style T'ai Chi with one of his senior students 5 years before that. I correspond occasionally with Tim Price Sitai in Oxfordshire, you probably know him.

The groundwork we get into is something that is usually only done after about 5 years of pushing hands (unless the student is younger that 25 or so, then it is safe to start earlier), and then only with "volunteers" crazy enough to want to endure the suffering involved in the full martial education process. First, the student has to learn to fall from any direction without being hurt. At this point, the first three throws are introduced: White Crane, Repulse Monkey and Single Lotus, and then the counters to these throws. Then, we learn to fall from various heights; from chairs, tables, over chairs, tables, etc., as well as incorporating takedowns and locks into freestyle pushing hands. Then it is safe to start working more complicated and combination throws. Snake Creeps Down, Needle at Sea Bottom, Double Lotus. Also, catching punches and kicks in midair as we jump to dislocate the opponent's joints; following an opponent who has fallen or has jumped out of the way by tumbling, righting ourselves in a hurry, and using those principles in attacking from the ground. Then mixing those application principles in single and multiple opponent and weapons strategy scenarios.

As you can see, it is a very involved study. The Wu family have been justly famous for a deep and sophisticated knowledge of how to apply soft principles and acceleration into wrestling and groundfighting, and we are fortunate to be able to learn from them, I'd say. These are things that are trained routinely in our Asian and North American schools, and I'm sure Sifu will introduce these things to the relatively younger UK branches when the time is right.

My Tai Sihing has a new website at www.wustyledetroit.com that may interest you.

Cheers!

Really? wow you guy's in Tronto must me a serious cut above the Detroit branch because I've never seen nothing but sandles shorts and Hawaiian print shirts at the Church.

[Ray Pina]

Fighting at close range is E-Chuan's specialty. I just had a victory Sun. .... submitted with strikes (6 seconds) and a big part of that is because after I countered the guys lead jab he tried for my leg and I lit him up with short-range uppercuts.

It happened fast, but he had his bell rung already and that .05 second that he goes for my leg/hip I landed on his chin/neck.

[scholar]

Really? wow you guy's in Tronto must me a serious cut above the Detroit branch because I've never seen nothing but sandles shorts and Hawaiian print shirts at the Church.

Well, I've known Taisihing for years. He is very conservative, he doesn't allow shorts, or sandals (or baseball hats or gum chewing), for training. At intermediate level almost everyone has the club's shirts. Also, you must never have trained in disciple's classes if you've never seen the martial. PM me if you want to know who I am.

[scholar]

Who is talking who is better? Im asking who does what and how you train, im after some info on Internal arts with grappling and clinch work, how you train it. I think the internal arts are the key thats all.

The person is the style!

FT

I'm sorry, it was me who wanted to avoid implying that I thought what we did was better than BJJ or any other art, I didn't see anything wrong with your question. "The person is the style!" is quite true, and my response is that we train to fight people, not styles.

[Ray Pina]

I'm sorry, it was me who wanted to avoid implying that I thought what we did was better than BJJ or any other art, I didn't see anything wrong with your question. "The person is the style!" is quite true, and my response is that we train to fight people, not styles.

You're being too politically correct. How do you train to fight individuals? You have a blue print for every fighter in the world? Their tendencies?

I train to fight the MMA ... how to take care of the shoot, how to handle the Thai kick, good punching. I can tell when I'm fighting a Thai Boxer by his guard or tendencies. Of course, each person's flavor is there own, but you have to know what technique is out there and how to beat it.

I also have no qualms in saying some styles are more geared for turning out effective fighters and that BJJ is my sworn enemy .... they made it this way, not me.