Internal Arts Designed for Clinch and Grappling

[hung-le]

Well, I've known Taisihing for years. He is very conservative, he doesn't allow shorts, or sandals (or baseball hats or gum chewing), for training. At intermediate level almost everyone has the club's shirts. Also, you must never have trained in disciple's classes if you've never seen the martial. PM me if you want to know who I am.

Really, I was there for three weeks. Seen lots of shorts and sandals. I stopped going because I didn't see anything that was remotely martial. A lot of form work, little martial content (and bad chin-na) Yes, I didn't attend a disciple class that was for disciples (close door stuff…always leaves me suspicious…) But that’s who was mainly wearing the shorts and sandals as I was leaving. Usually people changed before entering the church gym. Given the lack of mats, and sparring equipment I thought it was best to move on. I'ts not like I don't know what I'm looking for.

I’m trying to be fare… I’m just reporting what I experienced and not trying to slander anyone.

Maybe if someone gets deeper into it the training it picks up? Is that what your saying?

[scholar]

3 weeks? That explains it. Of course you didn't see any martial art, you never left beginner's class. New people are only going to be shown walking, a couple of warm ups and maybe about 10 of the first forms after 3 weeks. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy what you got, but the syllabus we present isn't for everybody.

As Wu Chien-ch'uan wrote almost 100 years ago:

"If beginners can comprehend the truth in this theory and manage to avoid the use of brute force, they will find it easier to learn the training routines and will not easily tire of them, even though the path to learning them correctly seems repetitive and 'taste-less'."

Closed door classes are the way T'ai Chi Ch'uan was taught for hundreds of years. That is the way the Wu family teaches, so that is the way Steve Taisihing and myself both were taught by them to teach. Before I am going to teach someone how to fight with our stuff, I have to have thoroughly evaluated them, physically and mentally, for their own safety and for the safety of the other students. There has to be an understanding that the teaching is for a specific purpose at a specific time or forget it.

Learning the entire form is the first test. If you can get through the form, then pushing hands. After you have been positively evaluated on your push hands, then it is safe to train the martial. At that point, if someone has been deemed reliable, they will be asked to join the discipleship. Aggressive, violence prone people don't usually get past the pushing hands, as they can't relax themselves enough to neutralise well. You don't have to join the discipleship to train with us, but we don't have to show you any martial art, either. Why should we?

The mats (and impact bags and spears) at Taisihing's school are stored up on the little stage behind the dividers. We usually don't break beginner's arms when demonstrating locking, so I'm sorry you were disappointed. We will sometimes set up a lock when working on a particular form with a beginner and then stop, just to show the potential. Perhaps that is what confused you. Also, you have to make a distinction between what some people wear to class and what they train in. Taisihing is the strictest teacher in our system on the issue of no shorts, no bare feet or sandals in class. If a beginner comes in that way, they won't be sent home, but it will be mentioned.

Taisihing is a fully accredited Sifu with his own disciples, the first Westerner to be so designated by the Wu family. He has had to be evaluated himself by Sifu Eddie Wu, his uncles Wu Ta-chi and Wu Ta-hsin, his auntie Wu Yan-hsia, as well as being presented to and approved by the generation previous to them: Wu Kung-tsao, Wu Ying-hua and Ma Yueh-liang. They all approved him as a Wu style teacher, and Wu Yan-hsia, Wu Ta-hsin and Sifu Eddie approved him as a Wu style Sifu. So, with that kind of recommendation, it is a safe bet that "if someone gets deeper into it the training it picks up." First, though, you have to actually get deeper into the training.

[scholar]

You're being too politically correct. How do you train to fight individuals? You have a blue print for every fighter in the world? Their tendencies?

I train to fight the MMA ... how to take care of the shoot, how to handle the Thai kick, good punching. I can tell when I'm fighting a Thai Boxer by his guard or tendencies. Of course, each person's flavor is there own, but you have to know what technique is out there and how to beat it.

I also have no qualms in saying some styles are more geared for turning out effective fighters and that BJJ is my sworn enemy .... they made it this way, not me.

You're killing me. I've met some pretty aggressive MMA guys, too. Toughman contest guys. I've also known a few bikers who could take any of them out in a matter of seconds, because of where they were trained, although they wouldn't consider it training, I guess...

There is a blueprint for every fighter in the world. Four limbs, head and torso, and the joints that hold it all together. There are just so many ways that combination can move. Some ways that it moves won't damage it, some ways that it can move will damage it. By learning to use T'ai Chi's "four ounces" at the right time, we train to damage it a lot.

At the risk of sounding like Bruce Lee (like his technique, he mixed and matched his philosophy from outside sources, too), you can be limited by expecting someone to do something a certain way. Suppose they do something different? Anyone who has worked with psych patients (or retail, LOL) can tell you people are very unpredictable. So, we train to stay mobile, protect our centerline, neutralise attacks, create openings and strike really freakin' hard when the time is right. This shouldn't be unique to T'ai Chi at all, most of the Chinese martial arts I know about train (or used to train) some version of this doctrine. We train to stay as effective as we can in every conceivable extension and direction. Taking and delivering attacks all the way forward, all the way backwards, to the sides and everything in between. This results in the famous "lean" of Wu style. I'm not necessarily going to fight that extended, but if I have to reach or move out of the way, I want to be more comfortable than the other guy while I'm doing it. If I can take my defense and offense to a place they haven't trained for, maybe I can surprise them. This shows up well in weapons sparring, where exceptional stability in extreme ranges of motion can help you keep all your limbs! The good Hsing-i and Pa Kua that I've seen trains in these ranges, too.

[hung-le]

We should let your words stand-alone and finish the day.

For not wanting to be disrespectful to the Wu family I would like end this dialog (at least about this subject)

[Ray Pina]

Scholar, I liked your two last posts. And yes, we train our ability a lot, to take the range of punching motion to the maximum. For example, in Ba Gua, can you face the 12 o'clock position, but strike at the 9:00 o'clock position with your right hand, with power, without turning the body or waist at all.

This kind of thing. I'm sure you know how it is. And you're right, the real Tai Chi only goes to one guy ... the heir. Forget even closed door students, never mind someone walking in off the street.

[Three Harmonies]

To answer the original post....it is not a matter of style, but rather of teacher as to what range's you fight in, and techniques that are found for each range. All the "internal" arts have throws and takedowns. Period. If you do not know it, either you teacher has not taught you, or he does not know.

"Gravity never lies, and the ground never misses."

Cheers
Jake

[BAI HE]

Jake just dropped a roofie in the "correct's" drink, hauled it out of the bar and is hailing a cab....

[Three Harmonies]

Sorry brothers ! Did not mean too. I am so ****ed tired of hearing Taiji and Xing Yi "players" claiming there is little Shuai and Na techniques in these arts If you do not see the throwing and locking (I would even venture to say 80% or more!) in your Taiji (regardless of style) you are blind, blind, blind! If I hear one more "expert" claim that Xing Yi is mainly a percussive art and involves little throwing, I am going to Heng Chuan his ass and bounce his melon on the pavement once or twice (only is needed; I am not a heathen ).
I feel sorry for some of the folks on these threads, because it seems that their are lots of people out there ignorant in Shuai & Na.
Please continue the conversation though, it was swell

Thanks for letting me rant,
Jake

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Closed door students", "disciples" or whatever method is used to determine who gets the "real stuff" is a bit like discrimination.. unless, of course, it is known up-front.. if new students are told of the hierarchy and the expectations to "get inside", then they can make an informed decision about their teacher's intentions.. I think it's dishonorable to take a student's money and not be sincere in the effort to teach them all they can absorb.. arbitrary exclusion from the "real stuff" should be clearly communicated to the hopeful student, and the reasons why as well.. As teachers, we are obligated to inform of flaws as well achievements, in that way the student can decide to make corrections or not, and when it's clear that they don't intend to meet the requirements to move ahead, we are obligated to terminate the relationship.. or, tell them they are welcome to continue contributing to the school but no advancement should be expected.. we are obligated to be honest with those that invest their time and money for our services..

As for grappling and Qinna, it is difficult not to see those elements in almost every posture, in almost every movement of Taiji.. if it isn't apparent to someone, they simply don't have "Martial Spirit".. similarly, it is also apparent that each movement and posture opens or affects meridians and gates.. Taiji is a work of genius, offering such diversified life enhancing opportunities for the those with the vision to see it..

Be well...

[imperialtaichi]

I totally agree that Tai Chi has Shuai and Na component in it; but in my opinion it is not the most important part of Tai Chi systems. And if one over-concentrates on the Shuai Na techniques one misses out on the much much deeper level of the art.

Further more, after seeing systems like Tian Style Bagua where the Shuai Na techniques are so much more sophisticated, it is not difficult to see that although Tai Chi has Shuai Na techniques it is not the main aim.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Taiji's locks and throws are no less sophisticated than other systems.. unfortunately, Taiji has been adopted by purely health oriented people due to the "appearance" of softness and gentle motion.. the deficiency is in the quality of teaching, not in the system..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

No doubt these things are in there .... everything's in there ... the punching, locking, throwing ..... some kicking, but that's just a side benefit.

The real question is, how many people can use it? How many can throw with their taiji? How many can fight with their taiji?

Being shown a car, watching someone drive a car, is different than hopping in and heading into town to pick up some milk.

This is why in the end these arts are personal. You go to the well for the formula -- and hopefully the well is pure and deep -- and then its up to you to drink and digest.

[scholar]

It isn't the most important thing, it is just one more thing.

If you don't have the T'ai Chi basics solid, forget it. You won't have rooting to neutralise a throw, uprooting power to do the throws to other people, or the ability to set up the timing, coordination or positioning to even get close enough to someone to throw them. But this also applies to sparring, fencing, you name it.

So to answer Ray's question: not very many. The training is arduous and painful, and most drop out, or (especially in the West) graduate themselves without actually learning it. Maybe a handful of Wu stylists in North America have the ability to use throws martially according to T'ai Chi principles, out of many hundreds of students. In Asia, it is a little better, maybe a couple of hundred out of a few thousand students.

[imperialtaichi]

Greetings..

Taiji's locks and throws are no less sophisticated than other systems..

Hello TaiChiBob,

Don't get me wrong, I still believe Tai Chi is one of the most sophisticated fighting system ever developed. But what make Tai Chi powerful is not the locks and throws, although the locks and throw can be applied. Tai Chi specialises in the manipulation of Yi Qi, while some other arts may specialise in Shuai Na.

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

If you do not see the throwing and locking (I would even venture to say 80% or more!) in your Taiji (regardless of style) you are blind, blind, blind

You don’t "see" throwing, locking, and groundfighting. You do them. And you do them against resisting opponents. If you are not doing this, then your system doesn’t "have" them… at least not in any functional sense.