In which order did you learned the forms?

[quasar987]

Hi,

I'd be interested to know, as a mean of comparison, in which order you learned the (empty hands) forms you know. Me it's

Beng Bu
Chap Choi
Dou Gan
Her Lou Zha Yao (routine 2)
Sap Baht Sao
Yi Lou Zha Yao (routine 1)
Yao Ling

[GermanMantis]

Gung Lik (Chin Woo Set)
Yi Lou Ja Yue (2. Road)
Sap Baat Sao
Bang Bo
Do Gong
Ha Fu Gau Cha
...
...

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Interesting comment , which Zao Yao form do you mean ? There are six . Which style do you train?

[shirkers1]

WHF 7*

sub say lo - 14 ways
sub baad sou - 18 elders
say lo bun daa - four routes running combat
tsaab tsuui ( chop choi) - piercing hammer
single stick set (name)
baag yune tou toe - white ape steals the peach
bung bo - crushing step
haag foo gow tsaa - black tiger criss cross
laan dzeed - fencing block
mui faa sou - plum flower hands


Currently working on

baad seen geem - eight deities sword
gung lig kune - martial arts power fist

started but never finished

dzuui law hon - drunken monk
gou dzeed been - nine sectioned whip
gwaan doe

You know who, where do you train and what lineage?

[jwwmantis]

you know who, what generation is Chang Shan San in Taiwan? Is he before Lo Kwun Yuk? Interesting that you said there was only 1 essence form. Do you believe it was broken into 6 individual forms, or were 5 other forms like it made up and numbered after the original? Just curious.

I tend to agree with what Sifu Funk once told me that there are about 10 hand forms to master the techniques and that leaning the additional forms will not bring in new material. Or maybe I missed his point? I do however want to learn all of the forms seeing how it is the family heritage.

thanks

John

[shirkers1]

YKW

All I wanted was a lineage and where you studied. Didn't have to give me a social security number or anything. This information helps understand where your mindset in training is and possibly your flavor.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YKW

All I wanted was a lineage and where you studied. Didn't have to give me a social security number or anything. This information helps understand where your mindset in training is and possibly your flavor.

somewhere in the forum rules there's a thing about not pestering a person about thier lineage. in cma that's kinda like thier identity. why bother with 'nicks? why bother comming here at all?

secondly it's a bad idea to let folks know where you study or studied as politics can still be played outside the forums and while your back is turned.

[mantid1]

I agree.

We dont want anyone bad mouthing our masters over the net when they dont have anything to do with the forums.

From what I have seen 99.9% of the people posting are part time or hobby Martial artist, so as far as business they have no worries about what is said.

[K.Brazier]

Youknowwho.
6 Zhai Yao forms is no joke.
There is numerous documentation of the Zhai yao forms being broken up into 6 sections.
Each section is rather short originally.
Zhang Xiangsan's Zhai Yao is not the tradional meihua or 7* though he published it as 7*.
It has been lengthened to a great extant.

In the original documentation of the Meihua Zhai yao forms, which are very similar to the 7* versions, the beginning of each form is written as a continuation of the one before that.

Furthermore, in case there was any doubt, the lists of essential Mantis techniques are spread out among the 6 zhai yao forms.
Some of these lists can be found in Wei Xiao tang's popular Mantis book.

About your ran ja-luanjie form.
I must admit I am also wanting to know where it comes from.
To my knowledge, in Taiwan this form was originally taught by:
-Wang Songting
-Zhang Dekuei
-Jia Jingting
-Li Kunshan
-A disciple of Zhao Zhuxi(name escapes me at the moment).

Later, in Taipei, Yang fenshi taught the Zhang Dekuei version to the Gao Daosheng group.

Besides those I have mentioned do you know of anyone else who brought Luanjie from the mainland?

[shirkers1]

YKW and MANTID1 Where do you train = country state. Lineage = what line of training you come from. That's about as un personal as you can get. Since you don't respect me enough to at least let me know that much then I find it hard to respect anything you have to say information wise. Which so far wasn't much to begin with.

Here we go another rules stickler. My agenda wasn't to bad mouth your teacher or style. My agenda was to see where you're coming from and why you think the way you do. That helps in convorsations, sometimes you have to come across a different way with different people. You obviously are strong minded in your training and that is fine. If you're going to post on a website then do it. Don't hide behind the fine print.

Exactly: Why post here at all? If you are going to hide behind your computer worried about politics and saving face then why bother.

I'm a personable person, I don't mind showing you who I am. I'd rather be talking to you face to face because it comes across a whole hell of a lot different in person and there is no hiding behind words on a screen or rules of a message board.

The games and politics are going to keep happening because no one is willing to come out of their shell and talk. It's all about hiding away and he said she said bullcrap and nothing ever progresses. Most people won't back up what they have to say, it's easier to think they are right rather than prove it.

Screw political agendas you can keep feeding the machine.

[mantid1]

Shirkers

I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. I was just agreeing with the previous post. Nothing at all directed at you.

Politics are not the only reason I dont put my name out there. Like I said this is not a hobby for me, I feed my family with this. You seem young, so you may not have this concept yet. When someone judges me without knowing me that is potentialy costing me students and taking away from my children.

Yes, I have had potential students walk in off of the street and mention things off of this forum. In fact it just happened last week. I was not associated with any of this because I do not give that kind of unpersonal information out on a public fourm.

Someone could fly off the handle and post something negative like:

" I find it hard to respect anything you have to say information wise. Which so
far wasn't much to begin with".

Thanks for proving my point .

I was not aware that I had to give information out on a forum. I thought you could ask questions.

Who does give the earth shattering information here?

I do admit I have learned alot form guys like 108. It does not mean that they are better than you or me just that they can translate things they read written in chinese manuals. I am sure they are accomplished martial artists.

I think I have explained my reasons.

I am sorry if you cant understand .

[holymantis]

hi all,
very well put across Mantid1,
i liked what you put.
you are right.
this is a forum for ASKING and HOPFULLY getting a reply.
Never to get upset if no one will or cannot answer your question/s.
also people can reply of the forum if they wanted.


yours holymantis

[mantis108]

In my openion, 3 forms in PM are all you need. Take 7* for example,

1. Beng Bu for "speed - add mantis flavor"
2. Ran Ja for "body unification - see your body move but not your hands move"
3. Zha Yao for "summary - remove mantis flavor"

I understand that in Taiwan the line between Meihwa/Taiji (Meihwa) and 7 Stars are blurred. But the it would seem that mainland Meihwa and 7 Stars are pretty similar. Only HK 7 Stars is quite different from the mainland. The reason I am pointing this out is that you seem to be IMHO quite aware of the core of the mantis with the above statement. In fact, I quite like your insight here although it would seem to me that there is a bit of the San Hui Jiu Zhuan concept from the Xingyi perspective. But then San Hui Jiu Zhuan (3 returns and 9 rotations) is also essential to Tanglang. So...

My take on it is that:

1. Luanjie is the Ti (profile of Tanglang) 36
2. Bazhou is the Yong (function of Tanglang) 64
3. Zhaiyao is the Bian (transformation of Tanglang) 360

I believe this is also along your line of think of Ming Jing, An Jing, and Hua Jing.

There was only one 7* Zao Yao form taught by Chang Shan San in Taiwan. The number of Zao Yao forms was always a big joke. Zao Yao in Chinese means "summary". The last paragraph of the whole paper which summary everything that the writer had stated. To have 6 Zao Yao forms are just like to have 6 paragraphs to end the paper. That was the biggest PM joke.

I can understand where you are coming from. I somewhat agreed that it could be our previous masters' joke to sucker punch (teach) the form collectors. I am of the opinion that Zhaiyao was developed out of Mizhou 90 hands. It's somewhat like adding 4 legs to the painting of a snake to make it look more complete. BTW, I concur with Kevin's info on Zhaiyao. So really it's a joke of no joke.

Mantis108

PS

I'm just one of the "old timer" that love to share my 'stubborn", "old fashion", "anti-tradition". "evolution" idea among CMA lovers. I know that I don't belong to the main stream and that's for sure.

You are not alone, my friend.

[baji-fist]

YouKnowWho,

I know who ! Welcome aboard the Kung Fu Magazine forum. Good to see you post here.

[shirkers1]

wait you're anti bush!! Oh okay well then the slate is clean my brother. We are now on the same team. I was in a bad mood yesterday.. sorry. it happens.