full contact

[MasterKiller]

Let me ask you all this...My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong? That was an ok amount of pain it is the same at my school. The break in tradition was the invintion of pads.

Are you guys Shou Shou, by chance?

[redofthenorth]

Well I am glad you thank tha mui tai have all the answers ....the truth is none of us have all the answers there is only so much to do with fist and foot. On the other hand I have developed Iron leg from teaching the way I do ( No Pads ) I have sparred many Muy tai combatants and have had them limp away not from pain mind you but from either shin splints or fractures from hiting my leg. Yes I have no feeling physicaly in my shins. this is good and bad of corse but I to have it. I also have whent to other schools and spared and have done the pad thang . Sorry to burst the beubble but the amatures and the teachers at the local schools did not know how to handle the full strikes. However this has allowed me to gain some trusted student and freinds out of the school.



one thang has definatly not changed over the last 1000 years we are still all open to have our own openion and if posts like this bore you why did you respond and post back?


However thank you for the suggestion of going to the muy tai school I apreciate it. I will let you have at least one ego stroke and that it muy tai spars harder than most....

[crazylegs]

Actually, having played both rugby and football, and known many footballers during my days (that's American Football, of course), the pads DEFINITELY make the players feel invulnerable. If anything, they not only feel but are taught to hit the other player as hard as humanly possible so that the player getting tackled actually feels it through their pads. It's one of the reasons there are so many injuries in football. Because of ego, not because of padding. They feel like they have to CREAM the other guy so they feel it. Why? Because they are wearing pads and feel like they have a point to make. Rugby, on the other, has no pads. And strangely, there are quite literally 1/3 as many injuries, professional rugby players outlast football players by a good decade, and tackles are done for accuracy and efficiency, not pain. Why? Because you aren't wearing pads, so retaliation is one of the many concerns. If I hit someone hard over the head in football, they wouldn't even flinch. It's actually expected because of the helmet. However, if you tried it in rugby, the retaliation would be swift and hard.

And I really do see where you are coming from with the headgear and mouthguard. I think that they could be required wear and sparring wouldn't suffer too much. Personally, I prefer not to wear them. I would rather know I can take a knock to my noggin' like I would get in the "real" world. But to each his own.

As for not conditioning my shins outside of class... That's not my fault at all. Our style is not about bashing shins. It's not even about making leg to leg contact. It does happen in sparring, but not because it is "supposed" to. If anything, the pain of banging shins has made me learn other means of stopping a kick without risk of coming home with bruises the size of grapefruits on the front of my legs. We're not a leg bashing style (other than knee breaks and sweeps, of course), so I have no need to "condition" my shins by banging them against something for a few hours to desensitize them. Not saying that it is a bad practice, just not needed for my style.

As for the 1,000's of years have passed so let's throw out tradition argument... Your examples of what has changed in the last 1,000 years is completely relative. Saying that electricity has made our lives better is completely opinion. There are plenty of people throughout the world that live complete and full lives with never turning on a single lamp. Just because it has become a societal norm does not make it better than a 1,000 years ago. Same goes for indoor plumbing. I have gone camping plenty of times where you had to dig your own toilet. You know what? I enjoyed doing it. Sounds disgusting by today's standards, but there's something about making your own way with just your hands and a shovel that makes you feel more in tune with things. As for teeth... well... you got me there. I definitely prefer to keep mine. So just because something has changed in the last 1,000 years, does not necessarily make it better. Nor does unchanging tradition make things worse. Some traditions have absolutely needed to change (the feminine role in society, the torturing and oppression of slaves the world over, etc.), but training for Kung Fu does not need to evolve, in my opinion.

[SaekSan]

When I first came to the States I was teaching full-contact without pads (mouthpiece and groin cup only), that's how I was taught and practiced. I had very few students at that time that were willing to learn that way though. After a while I became associated with the USCKF and we started using helmet (caged) and gloves (open fingers). The number of interested students grew three times larger than before, the students were having less serious injuries on average (but they still occured), we were able to practice more often and the students seemed to become far more skilled in fighting than before.

One day one of my students from the old days came back to the school (he spent a few years in Brazil but that's another story), he came back to a San Shou practice and put the gear on and... tore apart the fighters. One night we had a BBQ at my place and during a conversation he said:

"You guys nowadays are a bunch of p*ssies, you got too used to fighting under rules and with equipment, when Shifu taught at the old school we fought for real, you all should develop that agressive instinct that you only get by knowing that either you're gonna f*ck them or they're gonna f*ck you"

That statement opened a flood of conversation and the students present learned a lot from it. Looking back I guess in my wanting to conform to the rules and create a "safe" atmosphere for fighting I sacrificed a basic thing, teaching how to be ruthless. This experience made my fighters far more aware of their abilities and made them willing to explore this other facet of combat.

I think that it is best to begin training with gear before even attempting to move on to no pads (if you really want that). The pads provide a step towards reality combat. One thing I would also recommend is always look to fight people that are not from your school, this helps with keeping your techniques and strategy on edge. Being able to beat all of your students in bare knuckle fighting doesn't mean that you're a great fighter it just means that you can beat your students.

I'm sure that if available our "ancestors" would use equipment for training but there's always room for a little smackdown now and then.

[redofthenorth]

Thank you for the words of wisdom SAEKSAN they way heavy upon my heart and fill the mind with proper though


"AMITOFO"

[DragonzRage]

Your very definition of "full contact" is flawed. You said yourself that you don't let your people go full contact to the face (and of course people shouldn't hit each other hard in the head without gloves/headgear). One thing I've learned about sparring through all my yrs of MA training is that if you're not getting punched hard in the head, you are NOT going full contact. I've had a good amount of past experience with the type of sparring you're advocating. ANd altho it sounds good on paper, from what I've seen it basically boils down to monotonously punching each other in the chest along with the occasional slaps across the head. Now this type of training does have its uses, but it is hardly the most practical way to spar.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Muay Thai or anything else has all the answers. If anything, you're the one trying to argue that your method is the best and most realistic way. After all, you're the one who opened to topic up for discussion to begin with. Notice that 7Star doesn't only train in Muay Thai. Also, lkfmdc ain't no muay thai guy. He's actually a very successful fight trainer with a heavy kungfu background. We're talking training methods here, not individual styles. Looks to me like you just can't seem to handle the idea that not everyone agrees with you.

[redofthenorth]

Well put DRAGONZRAGE you do speek truly and from the heart. Forgive me in not noticing the truth you speek. I am a litle defensive I must admit do to most people including a local gear shop not leting me buy there product do to them not agreeing with my sparing practice.

However we more than slap tp the head like I already said the only thang we dont do is youse full hsing yi or yi quan ( qi Kung) punches to the head. Unfortunatly I know the realitys of these possibly leathal skills and strikes to much.

I stoped a muging in San Fransisco and hit the Knife weilding muger in the head so hard it fractured his skull and caused masive brain damage. I feel horible to this day and sometimes fear the use of force. It is somethang that I have to deal with all the time and work through during meditation so that I may respect the power and knowledge and not abuse it.



However I must say "THANK YOU TO EVERYONE" for you ideas insight and sharing belifes on sparing and traning with me. In light of this I have decided that if students "want " to wear Head gear and Gloves that is ther choice. This is the new way it shall be in my school. So therfore I leave this in mind are you all on my side or are we all already one? In this day and age there is already enough violence and seperation due to , Race , religon, creed, sexual preferance etc....so the last place that it should also be is in a place where we all can get in shape, clean the mind and body inside and out and learn discoplin, exeptance and most of all compation for this all to short of life and its butiful arts.

[Mutant]

hard sparring w/o gear is great sometimes, but if relyed on exclusively it is lacking.

it completely changes the game when someone is REALLY trying to take your head off. talk about reality training. you don't get that if youre going relatively light, and it does sound like that based on your description. it still hurts. bad. but then youre generally healthy enough to spar more often and therefore get better faster.

I think youre confused assuming training with gear/padding = less intent and ferocity, when in fact it can equal more. and you can still train w/o the gear. there's no false sense of security about it. why not do both at times?

maybe we're talking apples vs oranges here

[Mutant]

just read your last post after i posted that. sounds like your training is working just fine for you; i thoght maybe you were just p#ssy slapping around but i guess not

[SevenStar]

Well I am glad you thank tha mui tai have all the answers ....the truth is none of us have all the answers there is only so much to do with fist and foot. On the other hand I have developed Iron leg from teaching the way I do ( No Pads ) I have sparred many Muy tai combatants and have had them limp away not from pain mind you but from either shin splints or fractures from hiting my leg. Yes I have no feeling physicaly in my shins. this is good and bad of corse but I to have it. I also have whent to other schools and spared and have done the pad thang . Sorry to burst the beubble but the amatures and the teachers at the local schools did not know how to handle the full strikes. However this has allowed me to gain some trusted student and freinds out of the school.

I must have missed the part where I said muay thai had all of the answers. However, I have to doubt you about a boxer that doesn't know how to handle full power strikes.

one thang has definatly not changed over the last 1000 years we are still all open to have our own openion and if posts like this bore you why did you respond and post back?

Is this directed at me?

[SevenStar]

Actually, having played both rugby and football, and known many footballers during my days (that's American Football, of course), the pads DEFINITELY make the players feel invulnerable. If anything, they not only feel but are taught to hit the other player as hard as humanly possible so that the player getting tackled actually feels it through their pads. It's one of the reasons there are so many injuries in football. Because of ego, not because of padding. They feel like they have to CREAM the other guy so they feel it. Why? Because they are wearing pads and feel like they have a point to make. Rugby, on the other, has no pads. And strangely, there are quite literally 1/3 as many injuries, professional rugby players outlast football players by a good decade, and tackles are done for accuracy and efficiency, not pain. Why? Because you aren't wearing pads, so retaliation is one of the many concerns. If I hit someone hard over the head in football, they wouldn't even flinch. It's actually expected because of the helmet. However, if you tried it in rugby, the retaliation would be swift and hard.

yeah, reading it this way, I agree with you. However, I still disagree about the feeling of invulnerability. I know for a fact I didn't have one. I know the rest of us did not either.

And I really do see where you are coming from with the headgear and mouthguard. I think that they could be required wear and sparring wouldn't suffer too much. Personally, I prefer not to wear them. I would rather know I can take a knock to my noggin' like I would get in the "real" world. But to each his own.

it's not about taking a knock to the noggin. It's about REPEATED knocks to the noggin. it's not one fight where you fight and go about your way, it's sparring hard, day in and day out. However, once upon a time I didn't wear mouthguards either - then I got a tooth knocked out. I have a porcelain crown, so you can't tell it's not real, but the lesson was learned. I've never had that happen in a fight, but I spar full contact way more than I fight, so naturally the chance is higher. I still hate mouthguards, but I always wear one.

As for not conditioning my shins outside of class... That's not my fault at all. Our style is not about bashing shins. It's not even about making leg to leg contact. It does happen in sparring, but not because it is "supposed" to.

We are no different. we don't just wrecklessly bash shins. However, the leg check is a standard kick defense. If your legs aren't conditioned to it, it will hurt. I'd imagine that your style is not about bashing eachother's head in either, but you still want to be able to take a shot to the head, no?

If anything, the pain of banging shins has made me learn other means of stopping a kick without risk of coming home with bruises the size of grapefruits on the front of my legs. We're not a leg bashing style (other than knee breaks and sweeps, of course), so I have no need to "condition" my shins by banging them against something for a few hours to desensitize them. Not saying that it is a bad practice, just not needed for my style.

evasion is another standard defense. But what happens if you don't have time to evade? you check. so your shins need to be conditioned. It's like the whole ground fighting argument. People may not WANT to go to the ground, but if they DO end up there, they need to know how to efficiently get up. If your shins are hurting when you do happen to collide, I'd venture to say that it is needed...

As for the 1,000's of years have passed so let's throw out tradition argument... Your examples of what has changed in the last 1,000 years is completely relative. Saying that electricity has made our lives better is completely opinion. There are plenty of people throughout the world that live complete and full lives with never turning on a single lamp. Just because it has become a societal norm does not make it better than a 1,000 years ago. Same goes for indoor plumbing. I have gone camping plenty of times where you had to dig your own toilet. You know what? I enjoyed doing it. Sounds disgusting by today's standards, but there's something about making your own way with just your hands and a shovel that makes you feel more in tune with things. As for teeth... well... you got me there. I definitely prefer to keep mine. So just because something has changed in the last 1,000 years, does not necessarily make it better. Nor does unchanging tradition make things worse. Some traditions have absolutely needed to change (the feminine role in society, the torturing and oppression of slaves the world over, etc.), but training for Kung Fu does not need to evolve, in my opinion.

you and red are both confusing my post with LKFMDC. however, the people who "have never turned on a lamp" don't know what their life would be like if they had a lamp. It's not that it wouldn't be better, it's that they don't know, so they have nothing to compare to.

Why do you think that kung fu training does not need to evlove? Do you REALLY think that what you are doing now is the EXACT same as it was 1,000 years ago?

[SevenStar]

.......

- 50% of your students are dancers so you teach them forms only.
- 30% of your students like to fight but afraid of being hurt so you teach them "light" contact sparring.
- 20% of your students are fighters so you train them in the ring.

Those students who don't fight "full contact" will pay 80% of your bill.

nice.

[lkfmdc]

Some people are really dense, so lets try this AGAIN

no one went to WW I carrying a rifle from the civil war

no one went to WWII with the weapons of WW I

no one tried to fight the Vietnam war with the weapons of WW II

The weapons of the second gulf war far exceed the weapons of the first world war....

And sorry to burst your bubble, but the past was anything but "glorious". People lived short, nasty, brutal lives. They died early from lack of medical attention and health care. Many died simply because food wasn't prepared properly. People went blind for things that today we can solve with a single injection.

The average age 1000 yrs ago was in the 30's dude. The average height was closer to 5' 3" due to malnutrition. If you want to live in the past, I CHALLENGE YOU to do so. Funny, you seem to be typing on a friggin computer aren't you???

[crazylegs]

SevenStar:
Actually, you are correct. My 1000's of years ago thing was not directed at you. It was to an earlier post.

But to answer your question... it's not that I don't think training should evolve, that was a poor choice of words. But rather that tradition should not be forgotten. Did Shaolin monks not practice with pads because they don't know about them? Or is it because they feel they receive better training because they don't use them? Honestly, I don't know the answer. I am far from being a monk. However, I do believe that they have held on to the best practices of their traditions because of a very simple rule: they work. In other words, why fix what isn't broken?

Granted, I am a big advocate for change, and have seen the world grow and evolve around me over the years. Some things I think are great... some terrible. But evolution is not only a state of being, it is also a state of mind. And it is completely relative. There are those that have not turned on a lamp not because of ignorance, but because of choice. True mountain men... the Amish... several groups of gypsies still roaming Europe... They choose to adhere to their traditions and roots, and live very full lives regardless of how others around the world view them. It's about personal choice, first and foremost.

So along those lines, I do see many of your points with padded sparring. And I can definitely see where some might prefer to spar with pads, even just a mouthguard and head protection. I truly feel that you can learn "reality" fighting with pads. I just feel that my school's style will help you face the "reality" of fighting a bit quicker, and perhaps a bit more in depth.

All things considered, I hope I go through life and never have to face the kind of situation that requires this knowledge. I think of it like health insurance. You can pay for cheap insurance under the hopes that you will not get ill. And, in general, you can go through life and save lots of money by going this route and you could very well never need a higher level of insurance. But I would rather spend a bit more to make sure that if that one big visit is ever needed, I'm covered. Granted, I might invest a lot more money, and at times feel like it was wasted, but when my life is saved because I put a bit more in, it will all be worth it to me. Stupid analogy, I know... but it's the first that came to mind.

And point taken about the shins. I've honestly gotten the conditioning over time. Believe me, I wish I could say I always throw a perfect block or a perfectly executed knife foot each time I want to avoid a kick, but I would be lying out my butt. I still hit shin to shin, and at least a few times each sparring round. Over a few years of doing so, I am pretty much able to ignore them in sparring now. They still hurt a bit, but they don't stop me at all. So although I didn't beat up a punching bag or kick a tree until it fell over (man that's good stuff...), I have some of the conditioning you are speaking of just by sparring consistently. I guess what I was referring to in my earlier post was my first couple of sparring rounds. A lot has changed since then...

To everyone else:
Believe me, we do not pu**y slap each other. I've been hit hard enough in the head to get knocked out, and I've had tiger claw raked across my neck and back of head deep enough that I had scratches for a good month. Do we hit with 100% power? No, because we don't want to kill each other. We are training, not fighting. But we definitely hit hard enough so that we know if they HAD hit 100%, we would have been done for.

And for those that question whether or not that is safe... well... I guess there is a degree of risk involved. But generally speaking, we reserve head hitting permission for the upper students. The lower students are told to hit the head if it's completely open, but to avoid swinging hard at the head until they have confidence with their fists. It's not a science, but it's worked well so far. And for the record, both of the above injuries were done to me by master students, and I've since learned my lesson and have safely (for the most part) avoided repeats.

[crazylegs]

Some people are really dense, so lets try this AGAIN

no one went to WW I carrying a rifle from the civil war

no one went to WWII with the weapons of WW I

no one tried to fight the Vietnam war with the weapons of WW II

The weapons of the second gulf war far exceed the weapons of the first world war....

And sorry to burst your bubble, but the past was anything but "glorious". People lived short, nasty, brutal lives. They died early from lack of medical attention and health care. Many died simply because food wasn't prepared properly. People went blind for things that today we can solve with a single injection.

The average age 1000 yrs ago was in the 30's dude. The average height was closer to 5' 3" due to malnutrition. If you want to live in the past, I CHALLENGE YOU to do so. Funny, you seem to be typing on a friggin computer aren't you???

First of all, I never said I am one of those people that live without lamps. Nor did I say that I would ever choose that kind of life. Rather, I was saying that evolution is just as much a state of mind as it is a state of "reality". Read the my post above for more of my thoughts on that.

But your attempt at proving your point that tradition is worthless and that everything that changes is better is flawed in comparing it to kung fu training. You used weapons as your basis, which is fair enough. And I see your point in using them. But weapons, over time, have become more and more lethal to the point of near obsurdity. I think it would be darn near impossible to prove that because of pads, martial arts training has become more and more lethal over time. For that matter, that it is the use of pads that has improved training at all. There is no real way to quantify that kind of thing.

Techonology and science? Yes. Although I still think it's debatable if either has truly made our lives better. Depends entirely on your point of view.

But we are talking about kung fu, which at its very core has a spiritual and very mental aspect to it. That's not something you can get into a formula to see if it's improved or even evolved over time. You can only see how things have changed, and if they suit your personal taste with their current practices than the more traditional forms of study, than for you the new forms of kung fu training are better. But for me, personally, I think the traditional means of training are better. Not because I think new means are bad, but because I think the old ways are better.

Personal choice and preference.