Use of Yi Qi before physical contact

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Can Yi Qi be used before a real fight (not talking competition in ring) to diffuse a fight, or confuse an opponent?

So people say the great Mahammed Ali plays with the opponent's mind, not just over-powering them like Mike Tyson. Is that an expression of Yi Qi?

Footages of O'Sansei Ueshiba (Aikido) clearly shows how he toys with his students. Many people say it was not real because his students simply let him throw them around out of respect. But could it be that his Yi Qi had already dominated them before physical contact?

Or is this Yi Qi just a function of very smart use of psychology and NLP (neuro-linguistic programming)? Or is it that when you influence someone's behavior using NLP you are actually using Yi Qi as well?

Let's take it one step further: I have seen someone demonstrated that using NLP he managed to talk a subject, randomly off the streets, into thinking the subject's hand was stuck to the window and this person ended up couldn't pull his hand off? When all these methods are well studied and well explored, would that lead to "Kong Jin" where an opponent can be thrown without touch?

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have witnessed clear and convincing evidence that a person can effect physical change without direct touch.. not to the degree of throwing someone without physical leverage, but.. to the degree that i accept the potential to develop those energies toward such a notion.. to avoid the prejudice, positive or negative, regarding Qi, i simply refer to the things i have witnessed as energies..

A great misconception regarding Yi Qi is that it refers to "touchless" effects.. where my understanding is that it refers to "putting yourself where your mind is", like seeing the opening and rather than activating muscles to fill the opening, you simply "know" the opening is filled with a decisive application.. and, to the degree you believe it is, it is.. of course, there is much foundational training to insure you have the vehicle necessary complete that concept.. if i see an opening in traffic and attempt to move into it with a '63 VW running on 3 cylinders (an untrained body), the result will be similar to thinking i can effect a "touchless throw" without a lifetime of quite serious training and good fortune..

NLP is simply a politically correct reference to hypnosis, and yes, one can effect change in that manner.. but, in the street that is a luxury seldom afforded.. in the ring, you have time before a match to lay the foundations for such programming to be effective and the rules of a match favor such a notion much more so than a street encounter.. careful presentation of your image, an attitude of awareness and confidence, and a non-confrontational but fearless demeanor will likely neutralize most thoughts of conflict by potential aggressors.. and a good sense of humor can save face for both parties..

Be well..

[Mojo]

I've used my Hsing-I a number of times. It works very well. In fact sometimes it works so well you don't have to fight.

A few years back I had a guy road raging at me. This went on for a couple of miles until he started to act like he was going to run his car into mine.

I pulled into a gas station and got out of my car and waited. He pulled in and stopped about 20 ft away from me and he got out of the car. He was about 6'3" and I'm about 5'6'.

We looked at each other and I thought to myself that the fight is on, gave him the hard look I get when the going is tough and I started to walk toward him.

This big guy went white in the face and I could see and feel his strength being drained away to nothing. As I took another step towards him he hurridly got back into his car and drove away.

With Hsing-I you can 'win' fights with your eyes and attitude. Not just your fists.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Imperialtaichi,

O’Sensei’s and other Aikidokas’ ability to influence the behavior and /or movement of opponents is based upon subtle psychological principles and their effective manipulation.

One of the purposes of Aikido is to draw an attack by creating an opening. This is accomplished by providing a physically Yin space in ones posture for the psychologically Yang intention of the opponent to enter. By observing the opponent’s posture and intent, the Aikidoka would allow a flaw in their defensive posture to accommodate and/or encourage an attack. The appearance of throwing the opponent then is accomplished by manipulating the focus and intent of the opponent and applying ones response in accordance with psychological principles.

As an example:

If an opponent is approaching with the intent to grasp one’s hand or wrist, the Aikidoka would merely present the hand or wrist to be grasped. This subtly modifies the intent of the aggressor, if executed properly, by creating a sense of ease about accomplishing the intent, which is to grasp your wrist. This subtle mental shift tends to create over-confidence in accomplishing the intent thus reinforcing the intent or rather fixating the intent more firmly in the mind. At the moment just prior to physical contact the wrist is gently pulled slightly out of reach of the grasp. At this point the experience of the Aikidoka is imperative for successfully manipulating the aggressor. If the wrist is pulled away too quickly the intent of the aggressor is dissipated and he will cease his attempt to grasp, but if the wrist is moved slightly ahead of the grasp then the intent of the aggressor is to pursue the receding wrist. Timing is the most difficult principle to learn here. If the wrist is moved just ahead of the grasp at the right speed the mind of the aggressor fixates on the goal that is just out of reach and the intent to grasp is reinforced as it is seen to be just “almost” accomplishable. Once the intent is fixed in this way it becomes relatively easy to lead the aggressor without ever touching him. He is caught up in just almost grasping, he increases his momentum attempting to accomplish the goal that is just a half an inch from accomplishment and before he knows it his balance is over extended. Using one or two other psychological manipulations the aggressor ends up on the floor without ever being touched. This must all be accomplished within a few seconds. If it continues too long the aggressor will cease his intent.

The key is the intent of the aggressor. The more fixed the intent the easier the technique is to use. It is sort of like the Jedi mind trick, some are susceptible to it and others aren’t. It depends upon the intensity of the intent. The aggressor basically does it to himself! The Aikidoka merely recognizes the signs presented by the aggressors intent and posture and manipulates them.

What is more unbelievable than seeing it done is to have it done to you over and over again. You feel so stupid all you can do is laugh!!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Excellent description, Scott, easy to visualize.. and, it also goes to the "4 ounces" principles as well.. the 4 ounces hardly seems threatening, so it is often overlooked as a benign touch.. but, as it remains stuck to the oponent their attention slowly notices that the 4 ounces has followed them to a point of compromise.. sudden panic and the resulting resistance is actually how the opponent pushes themselves away from the "stuck" place and off-balance at the same time.. it is so sweet when we let the opponent do the work of defeating themselves.. sometimes when sparring, i can just bridge the defense and maintain a "peng sung" and the opponent will stumble backward due to their expectation of follow-up and movement/resistance they would have used if such follow-up had occurred.. this is one of Taiji's "secrets".. to time the soft punch just as the opponent changes their musclature from defensive to balance control, when the gates are open..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

I'm convinced this aikido stuff you're referring to is 100% students throwing themselves into rolls because I have not even been succesfully locked by one of these guys never mind led or tossed like that. I never see it in reality, just a teacher demonstrating on his students.

With that said, I believe intention plays a huge part before a fight but it cold be dangerous to talk about it in this light because one may be led to believe that they can develop this inat the expense of real fighting skills.

I say, make yourself invulnerable first and then your yi or intention will handle itself ... when you become good enough, when you speak one true word it will rattle the other like thunder.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I have read alot about Richard Moony's "ling kong jing" abilities. Did Anyone here have direct experiences with him, and are his claims of empty force real or is it similar to manipulating/leading the opponent force as discussed above in akido.

Have anyone here ever experienced empty force without physical contact like in the legends of Yang Lu chan abilities to send people flying in the air without any physical contact.

kung fu fighter

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ray,

You may have missed my statement that this principle doesn’t work on everyone! The reason for this is many have proper training and will tend to control their balance and momentum when engaging in hostilities. However, the less emotional control an aggressor has over his intent the easier he is to manipulate.

In my younger days I was a big poo pooer of Aikido as well and for the same reasons you have stated! One of the things I have learned about Aikido is that you have to actually do it to understand it, but you must also have a good instructor. Many instructors don’t really have a proper understanding of the principles. It takes years of practice to understand and apply the principles properly. One must understand the principles of body movement and momentum of many different body types and forms of attack and this only comes with a great deal of practice. Where there is no imbalance or momentum one must learn to create it through various means!

A seldom perceived aspect of Aikido is the basic attacks are based upon the samurai form of attack. While not universally adhered too, it was a totally committed form of attack where one’s focus and intent are fully committed to the goal without concern for injury or death. The greater the commitment to attack by an opponent the more effective will be the principles of Aikido. If an attacker is trained to maintain and control their momentum and balance then the Aikidoka must find a way to unbalance the opponent either mentally or physically. This is not really that difficult if one is patient and is able to effectively apply Aikido principles. In most cases eventually the momentum or balance of the opponent will be slightly overextended and physical manipulation may be utilized.

One of the reasons Aikido looks like a sham to the inexperienced is due to the fact the students appear to be allowing the technique to be executed. There are a few reasons for this. One is that is much easier to learn a technique if your opponent is engaged in assisting you. This is how Aikido is supposed to be learned; as a partnership between students! As understanding and proficiency increase your friendly opponents will playfully provide difficulties for you while you are attempting to execute a specific technique. These injected difficulties teach mental and physical flexibility and the result is greater proficiency under varying circumstances.

Any Aikido technique may be completely resisted and foiled if the friendly opponent decides not to be so friendly, LOL!!! But this is true about any technique in any system of MA. If you know the secret you can defend against it and work around it. If you know the trick behind a magician’s illusion it is no longer a marvelous exhibition, but merely a simple trick and not really very interesting. I am able to render any Aikido technique ineffective because I know the tricks involved so to speak, however that does not make me invulnerable to an Aikido defense. Aikido is designed to be utilized on a moving, active opponent and not one just standing there holding your hand or shoulder. This principle is often missed due to inexperienced observation and some of the types of training methods utilized. Where there is no momentum or action by the opponent the Aikidoka is supposed to be taught to create it through various means. This principle of Aikido is not adhered to in all training halls due to the touchy, feely spiritually focused attitudes of some modern Aikido schools.

In Aikido, an experienced practitioner is able to seamlessly move from one technique to another based upon the resistance and body movement of the opponent. Whichever way an individual moves a technique may be applied and each technique may be seamlessly transitioned to or from any other.

The second reason Aikido looks too easy is because to resist and not know what you are doing is to break something. You might break something simple like your wrist or elbow, or worse, your neck. Aikidoka learn to roll WITH a technique because if you don’t roll or “go with it” you will land on your neck or back and suffer serious injury. Aikido has been called the gentle art, but when effectively used in real life scenarios there WILL be serious injury if the Aikidoka is not proficient enough to protect the opponent.

It is an illusion to think anyone can make themselves invulnerable! Believing one may become invulnerable is a condition of the young, inexperienced and immature mind. Thinking in such a manner becomes a weakness that may be easily manipulated. It has been called hubris (overweening pride) and overconfidence and is just as easily manipulated as physical momentum. Humility and gentleness are a much more effective form of defense. I have observed a man utilize POSTURING, as has been previously described here, to intimidate another and he felt pretty confident and powerful until the “woman” shot him dead.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Aikido is, basically, Japanese Taiji (Taiji concepts interpreted by Japanese cultural influences).. the theories are similar and the applications are of "borrowing energies" and "sticking/following".. i have trained with Suenaka Sensei, and i assure you that resistance is futile at his level.. the flow and grace are so deceptive as to almost lull you into eating some floor.. away from the general class (so neither instructor loses face), Taiji vs. Aikido is a great match-up.. Aikido's combat focus is evident in students under 5 years experience vs. Taiji students with similar experience.. at the 10 year level there is a general balance (if the Taiji students were trained well).. at 15+ years experience for both players it is like a chess match, a good Aikido player is well balanced and possessed of good "listening skills".. they have effective footwork and follow many of the good Taiji principles.. but, the soft and non-resisting Taiji player seems to confuse their "intent".. Together, i think the two arts would blend into a very nice system.. throw in Qinna, and that would be a formidable and sophisticated system.. The biggest drawback of Aikido, as i see it, is the high level of technicality.. where Taiji has its value in simplicity and general usefulness..

Anyway, just some random thoughts.. Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

Hi Imperialtaichi,

O’Sensei’s and other Aikidokas’ ability to influence the behavior and /or movement of opponents....
.
.
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....to have it done to you over and over again. You feel so stupid all you can do is laugh!!!

Hello Scott,

This is the best description I've ever read! Great post!

Cheers,
John

[Ray Pina]

Mr Brown, is there a particular practioner in the U.S. who has this ability and is able to apply it in free fighting? Who would you say is a stand out of this style in the world?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

That one hasn't had the good fortune or experience to meet a skilled Aikido player, doesn't imply their non-existence.. Suenaka Sensei, is as formidable of a stand-up fighter as most world-class fighters (and, he's in his 60s).. his students are very skilled as well.. Sonny, a local Sensei and student of Suenaka's, is a gifted Aikido player and is sought by many for his ability to transmit the knowledge (however brutal, he clearly demonstrates the usefulness of the Art).. Typically, i afford respect to those of good repute, unless the contrary is evidenced..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Imperialtaichi,

Thank you for the kind words!!

Hi Ray,

The purpose and philosophy of Aikido is primarily non-contention! So your question starts from the wrong premise! To look for a skilled Aikido street fighter or free fighter is not appropriate! A skilled Aikidoka would not engage in these activities. As I have mentioned, anyone unfamiliar with how to react to a skillfully performed Aikido technique will be seriously injured and if the defender was skilled in Aiki-jutsu the aggressor would be dead!! Aikido is actually toned down Aiki-jutsu! I have trained to some extent in both methods. One of the reasons Aikidoka do not compete is because the method must be severely modified in order for the techniques to not injure the participants. The traditional philosophy taught is one of defense and harmony with minimum injury to the aggressor. An aggressor is not seen as an enemy, but more like a misguided friend! Therefore, the skilled practitioner will seek to avoid confrontation and, if required, use a minimum of force necessary in order to extricate themselves from danger in a manner that results in the least possible harm to the aggressor. This is the traditional method as taught by O Sensei’s legacies and not necessarily those who practice Yoshinkan Aikido which is the method taught to the Japanese police and more closely resembles Aiki-jutsu and the earlier stages of O Sensei’s teachings.

Hi TaiChiBob,

I should preface by saying I was nearly 20 years in the martial arts before I took up Aikido, so I am sure my experience cannot be typical. However, I believe there is some confusion among many concerning the difficulty of learning Aikido.

Aikido is actually very simple to learn if taught correctly. It is not only the traditional method of teaching that makes learning difficult, but also the way the techniques are practiced.

The primary manner of teaching is the traditional Asian method of “holistic modeling” with a minimum of corrective intervention. I spent a great deal of my time as a beginner just trying to figure out what I saw. While I understand the general benefits of this tradition of instruction it is a very slow and unnecessary manner of learning. The benefits acquired from “holistic modeling” may be gained later in the learning process and are inappropriate for beginners in my opinion! I prefer a more balanced method, a combination of linear and holistic teaching methods, as it is more conducive to efficient learning.

In a traditional class partners are rotated each technique. Once the technique is to be practiced the senior student goes first. This method allows the junior to learn the receiving end first.

Within a typical class each specific technique might only be practiced 2 to 4 times. If one had the opportunity to practice the same technique 8-10 times you considered yourself lucky! There are a few reasons for this, one is that each technique actually has 4 basic variations and each variation is practiced once until all four variations have been practiced. Then partners switch from attacker to defender and your partner takes his turn. It is rare that you might have two rotations to practice a technique and three rotations was like frosting on a cake!! LOL!!! This method of practice does not lend one to grasping fundamental principles very quickly and is a painfully slow way to learn anything!

Lastly:

Once the basic concepts are grasped it is the attitude of ones partners that is most beneficial to further progress. The maturity level, not experience level, but “maturity level” of ones partner is an integral factor. A good advanced partner is a boon to the beginner, but an ego-centric one only makes learning more difficult. Many advanced students don’t appreciate the benefits of training with beginners and try to avoid their turn with them. I always preferred the beginners because they were less likely to react in predictive ways and provided the opportunity to maintain flexibility in motion. Beginners will react much closer to a real life adversary. One flaw encountered in the training is that practicing with too many experienced opponents trains one to react to experienced opponents and not real life ones. But there are some good advanced students who will mess with your technique in a playful manner to keep you on your toes! Many advanced students resent the beginners and even between advanced students ego-centric competition can create barriers to efficient learning.

Aikido has a minimum of basic movements that can be linked into innumerable combinations designed to address most forms of attacks and their variations. For example the floor moves involve only 6 basic movements that may be combined in any manner necessary.

1) Step Forward
2) Step Backward
3) Step To The Side
4) Shuffle Forward
5) Pivot
6) Turn

That is all!!

There are between 5 to 7 basic techniques depending upon the school one learns from and about 8 or so throwing techniques. Each technique is performed right handed and left handed, inside (called “direct entering”) and outside (called, “turning”). The rest is really just variations of these basic techniques. Once the basics are understood the rest is just practice. I believe that in any system of learning it is the fundamental principles that are the most important to learn and understand. Once these are fully comprehended all the forms that spring from them are quickly and easily learned and applied!

I have been most impressed with the Tai Sabaki (body movement, or footwork) of Aikido. I have always felt if the only thing a person ever learned was the footwork along with some simple parrying skills they would be prepared to defend themselves against nearly all attacks. Tackles might not be covered, but not many adults are really tackled. This is more prevalent amongst youngsters in high school, street fighters and barroom brawlers. One would not be prepared to attack or to immobilize either, but as a basic and easy form of self-defense allowing one to get into a position to exit the situation, Aikido Tai Sabaki is one of the easiest and best methods to learn. It requires no special physical abilities, it is unnecessary to be a trained athlete as many marital arts require for the higher levels of performance. The movements are taken from traditional Japanese spear and sword schools.

[Ray Pina]

I understand the too dangerous aspect of any style... I have been shown ways to seperate the skull from the spinal cord using hold the ball. But today, these MMA and BJJ guys don't want to hear that, they want to see what you CAN do. So I modify it to forearms to the collorbone, get the neck and guillotine them and knee them.... I don't crank it, driving off the back leg, etc. Can I do it? I think so. But hopefully I'll never have to.

What I'm saying is, I think it's important to keep these things alive and there's a very fine line between walking the high-moral ground and that of a theorist martial artist.

I've played with a few aikido guys, a couple of black belts actually who are supposedly pretty good, and it looked nothing like the demonstrations I've seen of guys in those baggy black pants flying and rolling all over the place. I just don't think it's that easy to control another man who's even been somewhat trained in not being controlled, actually controlling someone else.

Not saying a great fighter applying a sound technique/strategy can not make another look almost foolish in combat, but certain things they tried -- like grasping my one arm with both of their's leaving my other free to strike -- seemed immature, as if they needed more practical experience with their art.

That's all I was asking. If there's some big names in Aikido who do use their stuff, who compare it with what's out there today in the realm of martial arts.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ray,

I agree with you completely. As I have mentioned I can render not only all Aikido techniques, but also most Judo and BJJ techniques neutral myself. But that doesn’t negative the efficiency of those arts. I just know the tricks of the trade is all! Just because you haven’t met someone doesn’t mean they don’t exist. There are those at the higher levels of blackbelt in Aikido who would make mincemeat out of you, but they would also not be likely to play with you! They would view your attitude as non-productive. If you go in with your glass already full they not likely to give you the time of day. I would give myself a good shot at the same, but only because I have a more lateral approach to the art than the traditionalists. In other words, I wouldn’t play by the rules.

Aikido is pretty much a closed community. They have seminars, not competitions, and only rarely join the general martial arts community to give demonstrations. Seminars are for the purpose of sharing, learning and for some, exercising egos by showing off and making life generally difficult for the newer students. Many prefer showing off and bullying rather than training with an attitude of true Aikido brotherhood!

There are a wide variety of abilities found amongst practitioners due to the quality of teaching, individual ability and purpose for training. I met one woman who began training because she thought Aikido was a religion!! She found out otherwise of course, but it just illustrates the wide diversity of attitudes found amongst Aikidoka! I do not mean to imply Aikido has no weaknesses, it does, and a few blind spots too. Many schools focus on the brotherhood and the spiritual aspects taught by O Sensei in his later years and these tend to teach a very mediocre Aikido! But weaknesses and blind spots occur in every art! Those who are truly dedicated to learning the art as a self-defense and not just an activity can be very formidable and the quality of their ability is commensurate with their focus on training as it is with any other art!

The most notable schools in California, that turn out the highest caliber practitioners, are found in San Diego and Berkley: San Diego Aikikai with Chiba Sensei or Berkeley Aikikai with Shibata Sensei. Both men will take not guff from students with a bad attitude or come in with their cup full. If you choose to learn you must abide by the rules and traditions of the school. Remember that many in Aikido no longer view the practice as just a martial art, but as a way of life, so they train with much less intensity and focus than those who are into rough and tumble martial arts! I would recommend a Yoshinkan school or an Aiki-jutsu school for extreme Aikido, but you should be able to find serious students in the Aikikai schools I have mentioned or their affiliates. In the school I attended there was a wide variety of personalities, from law enforcement like myself and a few others, to New Age hippies. So basically you can find ‘lovers” AND “fighters”!!

I agree with you, the methods of engaging you by the Aikidoka was not very practical. I do not know your acquaintances, their skill levels or their instructors so I cannot address their flaws directly. However, there is a wide variety of ability found within instructors of any art. Some are better than others and some have only trained in one art which I agree is very limiting. Aikido is not really an aggressive art, it is a responsive art. Its purpose is to react rather than attack, so in reality an Aikidoka would not attack you or grab you unless the purpose was to elicit a response from you they could respond too.