Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 158

Thread: The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Dayton,Ohio,U.S.A.
    Posts
    662

    The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

    What influence did the tiger and leopard styles have on Pak Mei White Eyebrow in structure stances forms concepts principles and techniques ?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    28
    In YKM, the tiger influence is in our back, as soon as we hunch our back we are ready to pounce, i guess, on our opponent and have the mentality to attack and maim. the leopard is in the eyes. always being aware of our surroundings and focused.
    Be Soft,Relaxed with no Intent and that brings out the speed, chi and power!

  3. #3

    Tiger and Leopard

    Interesting post! This could go down many routes.

    On a very basic level.

    From my point of view, on a spiritual level the 'Tiger' influence is in having the courage, the strength of your own mind, as to know when to fight or not. It's about having a controlled aggression in a potentially dangerous situation.
    As my Sifu says "Pak Mei's aggression is similar to having a controlled madness, that you can switch on and off at any time".

    The 'Leopard' influence is in it's changeability (if that is a word!), by this I mean that you should be able to change tactics at the blink of an eye, or if for some reason we make a mistake in attacking, having the ability to change tactics quickly to rectify the situation before the opponent can capitalise on our mistake.

    On a physical level, the 'Tiger' influence is fairly obvious in the way that the techniques are applied in a fast, ferocious manner, just like a 'tiger going for the kill'.

    The 'Leopard' influence is seen in the footwork and the way we advance, retreat and dodge with speed, balance, dexterity and stability.

    That should start everyone off!
    Dave Stevens

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Bondi, Sydney Australia
    Posts
    2,502

    Tiger and Leopard

    I think Dave laid it out pretty well. I concur with his spiritual concepts and physical manifestations.

    Tiger is focussed direct and supremely powerful, leopard is more elusive and uses more lateral, or evasive movement. Tiger: pounce, crush and kill. Leopard: maim and deconstruct.

    I think concepts like tiger claw hand, or tiger stepping are only very minor components in the realisation of these physical and spiritual concepts.

    I can't say one way or the other for sure if this is the same "animal theory" as shaolin based styles. That would be an interesting extention to this thread perhaps.

  5. #5

    Tiger and Leopard in Pak Mei

    Interesting point that Yum Cha raised about the animal theory in Shaolin based styles.

    Ofcourse, in Pak Mei there is the poem that states:
    "Immortals instruct the Dragon, Crane and Snake; Pak Mei transmits the Tiger and Leopard"

    So from this couplet, we can see the 'Shaolin Chan Buddhist theory' that already exists within the Pak Mei system. However, I feel that these ideals of the Tiger and Leopard are more to do with the body mechanics, concepts, principles and strategies in the way that we play the style.

    Another viewpoint on the Tiger is that its mental attitude to a confrontation or while on the prowl for a kill. The concept behind this is that if you decide to fight with someone then the mental attitude is that you take the fight directly to the person concerned. You should not be to concerned about getting into the fight but once you decide to fight, then have the courage of your own convictions and strength of mind, to know that what you have decided, is the correct path to go down.

    Not very many people can handle having the fight being taken directly to them, as most people would expect you to back down, be diplomatic, etc and this is where the Tiger spiritual aspect is strongest.... it learns to intimidate through its physical and mental presence, secure in its mind that he controls his destiny.

    The Leopard on the other hand is more concerned about elusiveness, camoflage, deception..... however, if the Lepard in the wild feels that he has been spotted then it attacks to primiarily get out of danger and back to a position where he can survey the territory..... but how does this concept apply to Pak Mei.

    Well there is the thought about quickness of mind or wit. This would mean that sometimes within a confrontation, we get to enmeshed with the opponent. So the concept could be to strike quickly, forcibily and retreat to a safer distance where we can take stock of the situation and observe the opponent from a different perspective.

    There is also another view that the Tiger and Leopard is an embodiment of Yin and Yang. Tiger being the Yang aspect that portrays the male, hardness, strength, courage, power, etc and the Leopard being the Yin aspect the female, softness, decisiveness, agility, etc. So we have the completeness of Yin and Yang that is portrayed in two of the most powerful animals.

    Maybe Yum Cha or some of the other Pak Mei people can expand upon this.
    Dave Stevens

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Dayton,Ohio,U.S.A.
    Posts
    662
    Hi Guys this is exactly what i was wanting to here , good post from all you guys .

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,863

    Nice thread

    YKM Late Master Leung Cheung (My Sifu) said that the Tiger and Leopard is basically the Mortals or represnts the Sifu OF the system. Our T-Shirts only have the Tiger and Leopard coming from the YKM emblem. These 2 animals show the speed, power, evasivness, internal strength spirit, eyesight (vision), skills. Both these animals fight differently and set up there catch using different stratagies. Leopard Vision or head represents the cats night vision and is best of all cats vision. It is very strong in the neck and upper back as it pulls its prey up trees from larger beast and prey. Its subtleness and agility is also better then a tiger!

    Tiger is thicker and stronger and usually over powers the prey with stealth and more aggressive manner, courage, it is more external of the 2 animals also. It also swims better then most cats and is is the largest species of cats. Powerful limbs and flexable back bone help to power the animal. Represents patience and endurance.


    Anyway these 2 combined as a fighting system or theory is pretty cool to get the person to get a good mindset of how to be in a fight.

    hope this helps?

    Gaz

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Bondi, Sydney Australia
    Posts
    2,502
    Hi Guys,
    Dave - I've had the alter translated as such: "Sifu teaches the Tiger and Leopard, the immortals teach the essence of Pak Mei."

    Obviously, the significance of the difference of the two translations is the use of the other "animals" that complete the Shaolin 5 animals allusion. This is why I question the inclusion of the animal theory as being the same as the Shaolin theory. I'm no Chinese character scholar, and I know there are several ways to read each one, so I guess I'm only reiterating "hearsay". I know the Vietnamese lineage has integrated it, I'm not so sure about other lines.

    To me, this means that Sifu teaches you the physical aspects of the art, but the immortals teach you the essence of its application - understanding. An implied development of spirit and intuition. In our class, students are pushed not to lean on Sifu or Si Hings to develop their art. They are taught from the beginning that excellence in Pak Mei depends on their own efforts, their own interpretations and their own application of what they are taught. Thus, perhaps, the reason for so many Pak Mei players having such distinct "Personal" style?

    Otherwise Dave, I agree totally with your observations, as I said before, we're on the same page. I think its pretty simple and straightforward.

    Gary - I think the direct relationship between eyes, back, and other physical attributes is more in line with the Shaolin philosophy, and I know Sifu Cheung Leung used to call it Shaolin Yau Kung Mun, and SiGung Har came from Hung Gar background, where it was certainly applied.

    Relating the Tiger and Leopard to Yang and Yin concepts is an interesting proposition, and perhaps merits a bit of reflection...and after all, its all about this "reflection", to some extend.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,863

    Hi Yummy

    The Internal Sets of YKM are SHAOLIN so thats why the 5 animals i suppose. Hung gar also uses them as well alot of systems even non shaolin. Shaolin YKM is connected to shaolin same as Bak Mei so thats why some like vietnam use shaolin 5 animal theory as well. I guess even Omie Daoist arts use 5 animal theories so i belive that maybe the 5 animals dont belong to just any religious sect or system it can apply just like 5 elements which its combined anyway.

    This was told to me by Late Ha Kwok Cheung with the Alter the tiger and leopard is the sifu and students, the chi kung aspects are the immortal side of the art. Therefore IMHO if you Bak Mei OR YKM dont use the hei gung the spiritual side is missing then it doesnt contain the Dragon, crane and snake...

    FT

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Bondi, Sydney Australia
    Posts
    2,502
    Hi Gary,
    What do you think? Will any Hei Gung work? Or, does it have to be the Pak Mei hei gung?

    Do all hei gung train the same skills, or do different hei gung train different skills...
    Does Yau Kung Mun hei gung train different skills than Pak Mei hei gung, as we know they are different.

    Is the question really, how do you commune with the immortals? How do the "spirits" or the "ancestors" teach you? Are they external forces, or are they part of you, internal...

    Is spirit the same as spiritual?

    Pretty esoteric ground...too esoteric for a Kau La, Sut Choi Donkey like me...
    Last edited by Yum Cha; 04-18-2005 at 12:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Hi Guys,
    Pak Mei Hei Gung - Five Elements of the Earths Force aka Five Elements Hand Skills, is said to be the concluding internal training that is taught only after the practitioner has learnt and understood the Mung Fu Chu Lum - Fierce Tiger comes out of the Woods / Forest.

    My understanding of this set, is that it is predominantly a meditation exercise, that helps root the four dynamics with the six powers and most importantly trains the correct mindset. I know that Cheung Lai Chuen had passed it on to his 'late' son Cheung Bing Faat and possibly Cheung Bing Lam, as they can demonstrate power like I've never seen before.

    However, this aspect of the system hasn't been passed on to many disciples. Well this is my understanding anyway.

    Personally, coming from and being an acupuncturist and tuina practitioner, I have had to practise hei gung very extensively and in particular a system called "Shaolin Nei Jin Qi Gung - Shaolin Internal Force". I have practised this particular system now for 4 years solidly, and the one thing that my Sifu said to me when I was in Hong Kong was how much power I am now generating in my Pak Mei, by combining the principles of what I have learnt and analysed from the Hei Gung into my Pak Mei techniques.

    So I certainly don't think that you have to learn the 'Pak Mei Hei Gung' to get to internal aspect of the style, but I do think that the Hei Gung that you practise should in some way, have the same principles of softness and hardness, so that you can relate it to the practice of Pak Mei.

    So to me the 'Immortal' aspect is like what you say Yum Cha, it is more to do with self practice, analysis and realisation - the Sifu, Si Hings can only do and show you so much, but the rest of the journey must be made by the student on their own, through their own interpretation and ability.

    However, in todays society, we live in a world where students want to be shown everything but can not be bothered to work for it, and thus showing a lack of respect towards to the Sifu and the Ancestors before them, who through their own perseverence have kept the style alive.
    Dave Stevens

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,863

    Hi

    Personally i would prefer to learn my systems hei gung then others to add to the system although if you dont know or have the Systems Hei gung that you learn then you have no choice but to learn someone elses. I prefer the styles hei gung than anyone elses!

    Anyway, i personally believe that the systems hei gung was ment for certain Gings and health benifits thats why i wouldnt do anyone elses because the other arts hei gung may develop a different Ging. So im just trying to keep it intacked with the art!

    I can see Mung Fu done at a Taiji pace for Hei Gung better then doing it fast!


    Pak Mei,

    What type of internal force does the Hei Gung give?

    FT

  13. #13
    Hi FT,
    It not a case of adding someone else's hei gung into Pak Mei. Thats not what I have done.... I have used the concepts and principles of this particular set to help enhance my own understanding of the Pak Mei techniques, as this system uses that same soft and hard qualities as Pak Mei.

    The system of Qi Gong that I have learnt is from becoming a tuina practitioner and is the standard 'medical qi gong' set that is taught and practiced by traditional tuina practitioners in China and abroad.

    It's designed to help the practitioner project qi out and as well as absorb qi, primairily by the hands and in particular laogong P8 and chongchung P9. Though through the practice of this set, you begin to learn to lead to qi to any part of the body at will, in order to treat the person that your working on.

    However, with this set in particular, it does strengthen the body extremely quickly (similar to the Yi Jin Jing) not just on the musculo-skeletal system but the internal system as well, without having an adverse effect on the person speed, flexibility and/or agility. In essence this set gives the practitioner a better understanding of how to draw energy from the floor through the point YongQuan K1, so thatit can be utilised by the body.

    This is what I have personally observed in myself, through my own diligent practise and training, and whats more has been noticed by my Sifu and Si Bak Gung Cheung Bing Lam when I was in Hong Kong in January.
    On this point, I have actually physically demonstrated my level of understanding in this area to both my Sifu and Si Bak Gung when I treated them for certain complaints and both have felt me manipulating their qi by creating sensations at differents parts of the body.

    I've actually taught this set to some patients that are athletes in their own field of sport (competitive gymnasts, professional dancers, etc) and all have come back to me with positive comments about their increased levels of endurance, strength and overall fitness.... regardless of their particular discipline of sport.

    However, I've now diverged from what you were asking and I understand what your saying with regards to practising the styles/systems hei gung set.... but its all to easy to limit your own understanding by just practising the systems hei gung. Reason why I say this is, I've seen many people in CMA teach qi (hei) gong and not really unserstand what it is they themselves are teaching, nor do they have a concept of qi and how it works within their own system.

    What your actually training essentially is, how to co-ordinate your breathing with your body movement to enhance your ging. So the style's hei gung is developed to its body shape and movement. But in the case of doing Mang Fu Chu Lam slowly for hei gung purposes, I have to disagree here.

    The form itself is supposed to be fast because by the time you have learnt up to Sahp Baa Morr Kiu Kuen, the practitioner is able to open the 3 gates in the arms, but at this point the practitioner can still pull the ging but the Fierce Tiger form is designed to release the ging in an instant of the strike.

    Once the ging has been released its not possible to pull it back, hence why this particular form is so closely guarded and not taught to very many people for obvious reasons.

    Personally, I believe that you should practise the systems own particular hei gung, but if the person doesn't know how to teach it or does really understand it, then that can be a very dangerous and volatile combination.
    Dave Stevens

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    2,140

    Thumbs up

    Hi Dave,

    Hope all is well with you. Very well said about the subject. Thanks for sharing such invaluable info with the community. I for one appreciate it a lot.

    Warm regards

    Robert
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  15. #15

    Hey Robert!

    Alright Robert,
    Thanks for your kind words m8.
    Long time since I seen you post on here. How you doing?

    Everything with is cool m8. My Sifu gave me official permission to teach, develop and promote Pak Mei here in London and the UK.... so I'm pleased as punch here.

    My classes begin in a couple of weeks, so its something to look forward to. Though it will be quite a lot of hard work at the same time.

    Have to say, I quite like this thread as its got a good potential to travel down many routes of exploration and discussion.... as everyones views and perceptions are valid.
    Dave Stevens

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •