Li Pi Quan

[yu shan]

Hey Black

Good luck getting your answer on lipi partnered form. Maybe people do not know the two man lipi. My teacher has not taught it to me yet, God knows I have enough to keep straight. Next time I see him I will ask how the two man version of lipi goes. I know my older kf brother started on it, but he is at the beginning.

[Forkintheroad]

there's a video called praying mantis films, that shows part of the li pi 2 man form, but I can't remember the web page, if you search the archives I know there was a thread on it quite some time ago. I also have not yet learned Li Pi's 2 man form.

[bokfu]

Onyami

I took a look at your vid clip concerning the "Li Pi" form in question. Answer to that, being a ba bu practitioner... this ain't Li Pi. (You can call a duck a chicken all day long, but at the end of the day, it is still a duck.) The Li Pi form comes from Eight Step and Wu Tang. These two styles are very close to each other regarding the form. Even when Seven Star performs Li Pi, it does follow fairly closely the form.

I see a few remotely similar movements thrown into this man's form such as the clapping of the hands together after an elbow strike representing ba bu's catching the nape of the attackers neck to bring him off balance and forward into a kick, then there is the turning and dropping into a horse stance with an elbow to the kidney and finally near the end, there is the rear leg sweep with a backfist in there somewhere and something similar to our closed door kick. These minor things certainly don't qualify this form as Li Pi. I had to watch this clip multiple times just to catch small items that resemble the Li Pi form.

In all actuality, the form isn't really as big of an issue as the way it was being played if you really want to know if it was BaBuTanglangquan. Forms can vary somewhat depending on how you are taught, but the essence of the style of martial arts is the main thing. Ba Bu has soft style roots coming from Hsing I, Baqua and Taijiquan. These have to be present to represent the style no matter what. You can imitate the form or modify it but without the reasoning behind the movements/techniques it is void. The man in the clip is a hard stylist and looks as though he inserted some items from Li Pi into his style form. This form really looks like a Frankensteined form in my opinion. I noticed a few similar items to other martial arts styles thrown in. These things by no means indicate that he is not a good martial artist, it just means that maybe he has developed his own style from mixing things up in a way. No matter what, this cannot and never will be Li Pi and by no stretch is it at all related to Eight Step Mantis.

Good luck to you Onyami~

[bokfu]

Blackmantis,
To answer your question on the two man version of Li Pi. It is like another form in itself. You have other movements/techniques to learn to be able to do the form. Basically this form splits itself and at one point you may be doing similar attack movements to the one man Li Pi form and suddenly you are doing defensive movements that look like another form. In the mean time the other guy is doing his half which could become part of the one man version of Li Pi himself. It switches back and forth through the whole form. You have to interact, change and remotely stay on track with the single man version.

It is not close to the way seven palms two man form is done where you are either attacker or defender all the way. Li Pi two man form is one of the best two man training forms I have ever used. It covers keeping the distance and closing the gaps to in-fighting to all the techniques you can cram into one form. By learning both sides of this two man form, you may as well say that you have learned an extra two forms in the Ba Bu style mantis! It is also challenging to learn. The best advice on learning this is to try not to consider it being the li pi form, but just countering the other guy's movements. You can recognize it being Li Pi, but don't try to concentrate on the form so much. Let the other person do his part and then you do your part and know that together it resembles Li Pi. Confused enough yet? Once you start to learn this animal, you will go ahhhh-haaaaa... I see!

I hope I answered your question since you seemed to be having trouble getting any info on this item. Take it easy!

Bokfu

[onyomi]

Hmmm... my Shifu teaches that Lipi as a very beginning form... so perhaps he has simplified it for beginners? I also seem to recall him saying it was 7*, so that might explain why it doesn't have the "softness" you described as typical Babu. Does anyone have a clip of the Babu Lipi I can use to compare?

[bokfu]

Hello, Onyami,

Just a heads up... the man in the video calls himself "Kung Fu Loan" (kung fu dragon) and claims to be the final student of G.M Wang Son Teng. Supposedly G.M. Teng chose him to be the final student when he was only six years old. He does not know Li Pi and the form is not Li Pi in no shape, way or form. Whether his style is hard or soft, he is not demonstrating Li Pi (Power Cut) form. It was a hard stretch just to find small portions that resembled anything in the Li Pi form. As far as Seven Star version Li Pi... no way there either.

If no one can direct you to a site on the net where you can see the Li Pi form demonstrated, drop me an e-mail. I have a video clip of myself demonstrating Li Pi from a few years ago and I may be able to get this to you in a reduced size. Check out your online leads first.

Bokfu

[onyomi]

Umm, yes, I know who that man is because he is my Shifu... and the name of the school is Kung-fu Long, thank you very much. I may have studied Praying Mantis for only 2 years, so perhaps I don't know good or bad Praying Mantis when I see it, but I have studied martial arts for over fifteen years, including four years of Southern Five Animal Kung Fu, so I do know good martial arts when I see it--and Zhou Baofu is the best martial artist I have ever met. The video clips may seem hokey and not really do what he is capable of justice. He has a deep understanding of everything he teaches and is also the most sensible and realistic teacher of qigong I've ever met. He also has what I think is a very good attitude toward the study and practice of CMA, which you can read about on his webpage if you speak Chinese (no, don't try to read the English webpage, I know it's embarassingly bad).

His friend Adam Hsu, a well-respected writer and student of Liu Yun-qiao believes in and even writes about my Shifu's version of events in the preface to his book. Hsu studied PM with famous master and student of Ding-zi Cheng, Zhang San-xiang. If Zhou's PM was no good then why would Hsu, a student of Liu Yun-qiao and Zhang San-xiang, support him? Robert Young has said some unkind things about Zhou on this site, and I noticed upon inspection of his website that the curriculum he teaches is very similar to that taught by my Shifu, albeit with more emphasis on Chang-quan than Tang-lang. I have PMed him concerning his "evidence" about my Shifu's early life and it basically comes down to a "he-said/she-said" dillemma. Therefore, unless someone can provide real, specific evidence that my Shifu's version of events is fake, I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, are you saying it is bad Lipi, or bad PM, because if the difference is just that it doesn't look like the Lipi you do, then that could just be that he learned or teaches a different version. How about this video of him performing Yedi Canghua? Would any Liuhe people care to comment?

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/Sample002.wmv

[Sifu Darkfist]

Why didnt you say that was your school onyomi? Yes he clearly does much of the same forms as we do even if it is different flavor, He is a well developed Master, and i got news for forumers that challenge his expertise if he is Master Hsu's friend and they both recognize each other than far be it from anyone here to openly question his abilities.

[bokfu]

Onyami,
Please re-read my earlier replies to your posts. I was not judging whether your teacher was good or bad. I stated that the form which he is demonstrating is not Li Pi. As I said before, Li Pi came from two styles of northern praying mantis, but whatever the versions down the line, the form should be similar even if a different flavor. I would doubt that your sifu simplified a beginner form since that would defeat the purpose of the form, which is a learning and study guidance.

Li Pi was created for students to learn techniques and theory just as any martial art form is created. As it is passed on through varying teachers, there will always be some slight variations, but nothing major, such as totally different techniques, movements and paths in the form. There are certain things that have to exist to be that form and more importantly, things that should not exist. Alluding to what my earlier post said, naming a form Li Pi does not make it Li Pi.

So, now, looking at your experiences coming from an adolescent martial artist to a young man, you state that you have learned a lot and know your martial arts. So, this being your sounding board, lets look at this form and use it for educational purposes for others in this forum. If this is Li Pi, why is it Li Pi? Is it because soneone named this particular form Li Pi, or does it follow the original roots and theory? How is it close to Eight Step, Wu Tang and Seven Star? It is considered a beginning form of course... why is it a beginning form: What is the purpose of this form? Would you be able to take this form to the oldest student living that knows Li Pi, demonstrate this form without naming it and have it recognized as Li Pi? Can this form be done with others who know the two man set of Li Pi?

Once you have done some research, post your response, since I am sure it would be informative to all of us, whether beginners or lifetime teachers. If you are residing in Taiwan, locate the original Eight Step School there. I am sure that Master Zhou would be happy to demonstrate Li Pi as well as the two man set for you. This school is dedicate to preserving the Eight Step style as closely to Grandmaster Wei Hsiao Tang taught it and keeping the line pure. It will be your best shot at seeing the original form of Li Pi un-watered down.

Good luck to you in your new found style of martial arts and I hope you have a very good future in praying mantis style.

Bokfu

[onyomi]

What is the name of the original Eight Step school? Do you have an address or phone number where I could contact them? Are you saying that the shifu there is also named "Zhou," or are you talking about my shifu?

As far as the application of the Lipi-quan form as my shifu taught it to me, it seems like one of the most easily applicable forms I've ever studied. All the moves have obvious combat applications. The purpose of the form according to my Shifu is just to familiarize you with a selection of common PM attacks. As far as the name, "power cut," it does contain several "cutting" motions, so I think it lives up to the name. I haven't been able to find other videos of lipi, so if you could post one or email me a link I would appreciate it.

I don't know if my Shifu even does Babu--I think his first background was in Seven Star and Meihua and that he later learned Liuhe while in Hong Kong. It doesn't surprise me, then, that the form he calls Lipi is not the same as your Babu Lipi.

[electric mantis]

Bokfu
Good to see you posting again. It has been a long time so I guess that there must be something up. After I just read your posting I went and looked at the postign by Onyami and followed the link to the vidclip. You know I am 7* and the form I was looking at doesn't resemble what we were taught as lipiquan. Our version looks like your 8step style. We do have the difrent flavor as you had said. Our difference over the 8step look is mainly in stances. I see your stances are more upright like tai chi ppl stances are. I wanted to ask more about the two man lipiquan form you talked about. I did not understand what the form is like. Does it follow the form or is it difrent. If our forms are similar, can 7* and 8step perform lipiquan together? It changes into difrent froms in the middle? ONe last thing not related here. I was told by someone that you are helping teach some former Shyun teachers up in NY? Do you travel up there to teach and do seminars? Does Master Jia Huang Chang go there too. If you are 5th generation under Jiang Hua LOng (2nd under GM Wei Xio Tang) does your students claim 6th generation or 3rd generation?

[K.Brazier]

Bokfu welcome back.
Onyomi,

I saw the clip finally now that I am on an American computer.

It is Lipi, My view opinion varies slightly from Bokfu here.

Zhou has added a huge amount of his personal ideas into the form which makes it hard to spot, but in Taiwan I see this all the time so I am used to it. He does the moves with his own idea of how they are done throughout the form.

Bokfu is right about flavor though.
The 8 Step school doesn't do the form this way.

You want to see 8 Step in Taipei?
Go to Zuo Xienfu's school. Zuo is Bokfu's MA uncle. He was under Wei for a long time and lead most of the classes.
He does nothing but 8 Step and it is 8 Step all daylong.
In fact, It looks like he lives in his school.

He has a huge lineage chart of Mantis in Taiwan covering the wall.

As for Lipi it is Wei Xioatang's form.
Somewhere along the line ZHou's friend or whoever taught the form to him learned it from GM Wei

Otherwise he just got it from book or video.

There also was a video with lipi solo and 2 man form.

I think it was made in Japan. could eb wrong on that. But he students were taught by Su Yuzhang of Wutang.

Zhou doesa large amount of the 7* that was taught in hk. You can also post him doing Beng Bu and see if the 7* people think it looks like 7* Beng Bu.

From what I have seen of Zhou's vids, maybe over 30 or 40 I have seen, and I know there are more, he does Mantis unlike anyone. I don't mean that in a bad way. He has come to his own realizations on how the movemnts are done and a lot of people like his look. If you like it then keep going with it.

Though he says he is Wang Songting's disciple, but he looks nothing like Wang. Gao Daosheng, who does look a bit like Wang Songting doing his stuff and you can still see Gao who did study with Wang Songting. He is in Taepie as well as his students.

Also, there is a picture of Wang Songting with his disciples holding a banner.

And you can see for yourself who the disiples were.
As far as I know that is the only disciple picture.

Also, Wang Songting's MA brother , forget the name, taught in Southern Taiwan.
Funny, but he is listed as one of the great masters that Wei visited when he went visiting MA masters back before the all came to Taiwan.

Onyomi, good luck with your studies.

Kevin

[onyomi]

That's my personal explanation for why his forms might look different... they even look different when he performs them in their entirety vs. when he performs them piece-by-piece. For example, in his Yedi Canghua video, he performs a quan-chui, followed by a feng-shou, followed by a punch. He then explains: You can link all these moves together in one flowing motion. When he practices the entire form he then proceeds to do it all in one flowing motion such that if you're watching it you might be like: "where'd the quan-chui go?" He does the forms in ways he thinks it would be useful to practice them or in ways he thinks represent the application more clearly, therefore when other practitioners see them they say, "that doesn't look like the form I know."

As to how much, if any of his PM he really learned from Wang, I don't know. He does say he learned a lot from one of Wang's senior disciples as Wang himself was too old to demonstrate some of the more physically-challenging moves by the time he took him on. I should be going back to Taiwan in about a month, so I can investigate it some more then.

Speaking of which, does anyone have links to any video footage of Wang himself? People say, "Zhou's PM doesn't look like Wang's," but I've never seen Wang's.

[Forkintheroad]

Bokfu
I was told by someone that you are helping teach some former Shyun teachers up in NY? Do you travel up there to teach and do seminars? Does Master Jia Huang Chang go there too. If you are 5th generation under Jiang Hua LOng (2nd under GM Wei Xio Tang) does your students claim 6th generation or 3rd generation?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, however I am one of the people Bokfu has been helping, as well as my instructor, and a few others. Although I am not a former Shuyn teacher, Bokfu, Master Chang, and other students have been more than helpful, and open with every question I've had, as well as my instructors questions. As for the generation claims, I've never heard him refer to himself that way (Bokfu), and my instructor does not look at himself like that either. I have yet to meet Master Chang, or Bokfu in person, hopefully I'll be able to make the cross country trip some day, and say thanks in person.

Later,
Rich

[electric mantis]

F.I.T.R.
Thanx for the infomation. I was just wondering if bokfu did any seminars there. I am not 8step but am interested in it enough to go to a seminar to see the style diffrences and techniques. I was only wondering about his lineage since Grnadmaster Wei Xiao Tang is well respected in mantis and he tries to follow closely to those teachings via Master JOhn Chang. It is a nice thing for Master Chang andhim to help out others they have not even met.