Real Combative Effectiveness

[Troy Dunwood]

Hello All, i'm curious as to finding out what people think of their respective styles in a real combative setting. I ask because for the average Joe that doesn't have any real fighting skills one may be able to effectively ward off an attack, tournament fighting is far from reality as well, but the real thing in the street, no rules when conditioning plays just as important part as fighting skills, how do you think your skills will fair? Have you ever questioned your abilities in this setting, have you conducting full contact sparring to allow you to see what truly is beneficial for you within your style and what isn't. I know most will feel confident about their particular disciplines and you should, but being truthful to ones self are you really that confident in your skills when your opponent have no care of life or death! As for me, I have begun to analyze my skills, because I've decided I can't do the five minute fight anymore it must be over sooner than that. In the day and age in which we live people are wreckless and have no regards for things that matter the most. I have totally changed my mind set when it comes to fighting, in comparison to times past although I believe i'm the nicest guy on earth when it comes to fighting there are no rules and no mercy. To me understanding theory and all that is useless if it can't be put into use, i'd llike to hear how others feel. I was in a fight oneday and I flipped a guy via his neck, it was not conscious on my part just a reaction to his motion, I was scared because I could have killed the guy but then I was happy because my training paid off and the skills worked for me that day. Let me hear some feedback and or your stories.

[David Jamieson]

my spin is this:

I would be foolish to assume to know the outcome of any confrontation because there are simply too many variables.

But I can prepare for as many of those variables as I can envision and that's all I can do.

Martial arts training is just that. IE: training.

Combat on the other hand is an entirely different thang.

[brothernumber9]

As I've gotten older and hopefully wiser, I've had rare occasion to gauge a result on the MA I've learned technique and theory wise in real unpredictable confrontations. I certainly question my ability in such settings, I haven't been in much of a real altercation since I started training 14 years ago. The only real testimony I can look toward is that of some of my classmates whose skills I admire and who have had fights, and the word of my Sifu and his younger days of constant fighting in HK.

I think I am like the large majority of those in the U.S. training in CMA that have little to no real experience of using what I've learned in a real fight. Just the same, as much as I question how well what I've learned can work or even if it would work at all, I would want to actually get involved in a real altercation far less. I got in enough fights before I started Kung Fu to know that I don't like them. Just the same, I like competitive fighting. Sometimes I even enjoy trading shots, sometimes I enjoy even continually raising the intensity just to see how far I can take it. but all that is cushioned with the comfort of gloves and head/feet gear and knowing that I won't die.

[David Jamieson]

As I've gotten older and hopefully wiser, I've had rare occasion to gauge a result on the MA I've learned technique and theory wise in real unpredictable confrontations. I certainly question my ability in such settings, I haven't been in much of a real altercation since I started training 14 years ago. The only real testimony I can look toward is that of some of my classmates whose skills I admire and who have had fights, and the word of my Sifu and his younger days of constant fighting in HK.

I think I am like the large majority of those in the U.S. training in CMA that have little to no real experience of using what I've learned in a real fight. Just the same, as much as I question how well what I've learned can work or even if it would work at all, I would want to actually get involved in a real altercation far less. I got in enough fights before I started Kung Fu to know that I don't like them. Just the same, I like competitive fighting. Sometimes I even enjoy trading shots, sometimes I enjoy even continually raising the intensity just to see how far I can take it. but all that is cushioned with the comfort of gloves and head/feet gear and knowing that I won't die.

I would hazard a guess that we all train in a safe environment. Intensity can be upped to the point where it is almost a level of real danger, but common sense usually kicks in.

When it comes right down to it, you can only train to what you train for. You also don't want to hurt your partners so much that they are no longer of any use to the training.

still, training some is better than not training at all.

[Troy Dunwood]

Thanks for the responses, my experiences in law enforcement and personal security have made me analyze my learning to the point that I had to sort of go out of the context of what I learned and how I learned it, simply meaning the traditional sense of what I learned didn't really work but when I began to modify the skills and interlock techniques from different styles a drastic change took place. As of late I've hired a sparring partner who fully dressed proctective from head to toe while myself only wore a head gear. My reason for this is to get the feel of no holds barred as close to reality as I could. I came to find out some techniques didn't work well for me which constituted a change in what I was doing, don't get me wrong I'm quite confident in my skills I guess perhaps I was on my own personal quest of my abilities. I remember a teacher once told me, if you were not learning kung fu for fighting then maybe you shouldn't be learning. It is true one can never predict the outcome in a fight but it's great to find out ahead of time my strength and weakness so I may respond accordingly in a real fight. I am one who have had many fights in my lifetime, some were easy some not, the tough ones and close ones were a learning experience which made me take a long hard look at myself and my skills as well as conditioning. I questioned my kung fu skills against judo, jiu jitsu, etc, styles outside of the chinese art form,
and although i have friends varying from many styles that I could compare to in the kung fu world, but none in boxing, wrestling etc, which would allow me to truly see if I could use my skills, personal quest maybe, I think in my heart at one point and time most will have this question if they are true to themselves, in any case just my poinion.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Troy,
I think every fighter questions their ability, thus they train to improve it. Even Pros, always question their ability, always want to prove they are the best, the Champ. And, as the saying goes, there can be only "one".

Fighting psychology and engagement are two areas worthy of an intellectual discussion, because the physical element will always come down to your training, to your instinct and reaction.

The psychology of fighting has been covered adnausium, attack and turn the tide, be prepared to die, be prepared to kill if the situation demands. Embrace the burtality like a tiger embraces the kill....

The engagement is an area most people don't often discuss. Engagement can come with the first blow that blindsides you, or it can start with that first filthy look across a bar, or wherever. Most people don't recognise and understand what is happening initially, and managing this phase can often short circuit the need to physically defend yourself. People usually only attack people they are sure they can overcome, and it is not a difficult task to persuade them otherwise, unless they are cornered.

When it comes to battle, I found a lot of sense in the writings of Samuri on the physical engagement. The battle with swords is short and decisive. The cut is to kill or disable beyond recovery, and it only takes one. It is not a series of repeated engagements designed to wear down an opponent untill they eventually fall. Domination and "crease."

So, are you training for the 5 minute fight, or are you training for the 20 second fight? Are you training successive bludgenoning fist blows to the head area, or are you training attacks that "finish." As you train so shall you fight.

Personally, likewise, I'm too old to get into a test of physical endurance with a younger fit opponent. Speed and decisiveness is my ally. As well as deception and surprise. This is my training, as well as my strategy. Naturally.

It may not work for everyone, and I know there are many people that have alternative viewpoints, but 30 years on, it works for me. I grant that the debate as to training techniques is open for many of you, I don't have all the answers, nor do I prentend to.

And, I can accept that I'm not "the one" and have no desire to be.

[Troy Dunwood]

Thanks for the response Yum Cha, your words have much substance. You know on one instant in my choy lee fut hung sing gwoon, my sifu was going over some fighting techniques as he is a fighter tried and tested however the technique he was explaining although powerful, in the context of what he was doing it was fine, however I found myself in a scenario where I had to defend myself and every time I tried to use that skill I had problems yet when I modified it I have been very successful with it since that point. I guess what i'm truly saying is when learning a style like choy lee fut, hung gar etc, in the context of how these systems are taught and believe me i'm no authority on the matter, i'm finding myself able to adapt by being more natural with my movements and not perse being confined to the way I was taught. I think mental attitude has alot to do with a fighter in that the mind is conditioned to destroy the opponent and hopefully the body follows suit, I had a fight one day with a 6 ft, 300 lbs man, and my punching didn't seem to phase the guy, at that time I realized I had to be very nasty with him to hurt him or at least to get away from him, it is fights like this that the class room didn't prepare me for and such was a learning experience. Now my students say's to me the movements look the same but I seem to go into a zone when we work on fighting which I like to call survival skills, I don't believe i'm conscious of what i'm doing when I fall into that zone.

[Pakmei]

Personally I think that it doesn't matter about how you, first learnt the techniques. As the way that it is taught is mainly to give the trainee a flavour and an outline for the style from which they can build on.

My sifu has always drummed into me, that one technique has many and various ways to apply in a confrontation. It comes down to the trainee to take what they have learnt and 'explore' the techniques / combinations from many different angles, distances, types of opponents to see how 'they' can effectively use them in those scenarios.

I always enjoy training with complete beginners, cos they actually move and throw punches and kicks pretty much how they would be thrown in a street situation, from odd, awkward and strange angles where the 'classical' techniques will have be to adapted to the situation for them to work effectively.

Then there comes the actual mindset aspect. I personally take the view that if someone wants to fight me, then I'm going to take a war to them! I've been in a few confrontations where I've had to use what I know some successful and some not but all were learning experiences.

I liked what my sifu has always said about his fighting mindset, which was that "if he knew the person that he was about to fight, he would give them one chance only and look at injuring them and making sure that they hit the floor...... however, if they were to get up from the floor after that, they were no longer considered to be a friend and took the means as to finish the fight there and then without hesitation". Now, some may say that seems pretty harsh, but actually it's common sense, because if the person is prepared to get up from the floor, then it obvious that he's prepared and looking to do some damage to you, friend or not!

I have been with my Sifu on a couple of ocassions, where there could have been fight that would have kicked off, but on all of those ocassions it was his look in his eyes that actually stop the fight from progressing to actual physical contact.

[Shaolinlueb]

to train for a real fight, and to use your kung fu to kill, you have to search deep inside yourself and unlock things most people dont want to.

[g0pher]

to train for a real fight, and to use your kung fu to kill, you have to search deep inside yourself and unlock things most people dont want to.

That happens to be the nature of my art. Internal training soon becomes more important than physical training.

My skills in a street fight? I would have no idea since you have to consider so many variables. You might see a jerk confront you, but that jerk may be a Ju Jitsui maniac who has trained for decades you know? But the interesting thing about a kung fu guy is that he is normally the nicest guy you may ever meet (like most of the guys on the forum).. But having said that, in any instance he is capable of no mercey and destruction. I suppose I would have to be put in the situation to find out how I would respond.

... But then again, even that may not help because I'm always holding something back in a fight. I'm easily capable of killing someone. That isn't the challenge. The difficulty is in learning to control your strength and anger. It's part of the reason I hate my grappler friends rushing me when they want to spar. I could easily sweep them, break their face with a palm strike, or hit them as hard as I possibly can, but that would be too devestating.

I suppose I just do not know.

[Yum Cha]

All the skills without the heart....?

All the heart without the skills...?

We all know which is more dangerous, or??