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Thread: Xingyiquan and Grappling

  1. #1
    xingyiman Guest

    Xingyiquan and Grappling

    I guess this question had to be asked sooner or later. How well do you all think Martial Arts like Xingyiquan and Baguazhang would fare against grappling styles like JuJitsu?? Or, more appropriatly, what kind of strategies would these two internal arts use against BJJ fighters?? What would they employ if actually got taken to the ground?? What are some of the types of throws found in Xingyiquan's animal forms???

  2. #2
    Guest
    Xingyiquan and Baguazhang would do very well. BJJ is in no way a super system I say that to anyone anytime, Pedro Suar and his students in Salt Lake City found that "Monkey steals the Peach"(in their case it was monkey steals the tiny, shriveled raisins) was an excellent technique to escape the gruard postition, as well as making their ears and noses pull toys till they bleed. BJJ is a sport system, has been defeated and was defeated a number of times in Brazil, it was never really tested under anything goes conditions, if you did win the entire gracie clan threatend you with great physical harm or worse. The Gracie fad/lie is finally being shown to be what it really was, a sorely needed wake up call to all the TKD, Kenpo and eclectic crap sytles that infected and defined to the super populace of American society on what half baked, watered down, lack of substance martial arts are. It is a great sport fighting system, you can lay on somebody for hours, no weapons, no multiple people, no eyes, ears or groin, ripped or bitting, its great. But the old adage is "You fight like you train", you train to win a match you play sports, you train to survive a fight, well its high stakes. higher level of brutality and cunning are needed. BJJ trains you to close the gap, roll around on the ground, find a good defensive counter spot and work techniques, My Xingyiquan taught close the gap by ripping their testicles away from the body and while crushing them like grapes to continously pound the attacker's head till its was a greasy red fountain streaming out of his neck, do you see the difrence in thinking?
    As for grappling I can talk for a long time on Baguazhang, it really depends on the form and methods your teacher knows. As far as XIngyiquan I feel it safe to name very common forms where grappling can be found. PiQuan/Metal fist, Monkey, Tiger, Dragon, Fighting Chicken, Turtle, Eagle/Bear. All the other forms have more Qinna(Chin na) in them, the fore mentioned ones are the meat of the Chinese wrestling wealth of techniques in XIngyiquan.

    Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

  3. #3
    xingyiman Guest
    BaguaTiger your such a Psycho, but I like that! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] You always have a good response.

    What Grappling/Chinna techniques does Xingyiquan's Water Lizard form(Turtle,Tuo Xing) have specifically?? I hear it concentrates on developing "wrapping energy". Can You delve more on the Turtle form?

  4. #4
    Guest
    In all honesty I was born with an extra Y cromozone, so I'm XYY instead of XY for the genetic Male make up.(This was a medical diagonsis from the 80s, I've heard they my have debunked the XYY recently) The only thing that really does is make me a bit more aggersive and my thinking a little difrent in the way I approach situatuions. Fortunately for me, I still have a healthy degree of control and an ethical framework, but its something I have to deal with alot. My father beat me and my mom on a daily basis for a long number of years when I was younger, until about 13 when I was able to start hitting back, so even today I have a somewhat resentment towards males in general, my first teacher was a true xingyiquan man and taught that mental images and focused and often brutal intentions will help produce more power, he did this so I could have a chance against my father and protecting my mother, also since I lived in a minority section of the city I wasn't really liked by other kids and was often a target. The images I use now come from that, but in all seriousness I'm really and pretty laid back guy, I think it comes out difrent, I just have a developed combat mind set and the images help in that.

    As for the turtle, my Shirfu had a saying, "Turtle is slow, the slowest, always last to the fight, but his animals friends are always glad he came".

    This means that to really use turtle techniques the attacker muct be damaged and beaten first, softend up some. The Turtle I know developes more subtle but very strong twisting and grinding skill, used for full body throws and twisting the attackers spine and or crushing knee and elbow joints. The turtle also teaches "all body weapon" idea. Using the back, and hips and you butt and shoulders and forearms as defensive/offensive weapons.
    Another plus is the turtle is an awesome internal power builder, do it as slow as you can for 30-60 min a day and in about a years time you body will feel like it as liquid metal running beneath it.

    Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

  5. #5
    phantom Guest
    Bagua Tiger, I do not mean to offend you or your art, because I also really like Hsing-I. However, in an issue of Inside kung fu, Dr. Richard chin, a sifu of Jow Ga in New York, claimed that a hsing-I guy once told him, "If anyone grabs me, I could torque my body in such a way that it would be impossible for anybody to keep the hold on me." Well, Dr. chin then grapped the Hsing-I guy's arm. The Hsing-I guy tried torquing his body many times, yet he could not break free of the hold. Dr. Chin explained that it was because when a Jow Ga person grabs an opponent, the grab cuts off the chi energy at the point where the person is grabbed, thus making the opponent unable to escape. How would you explain this?

  6. #6
    Guest
    Wow, sounds like this Shifu is highly skilled. I'm unfamiliar with Jow Gar, but it sounds like a good technique!

    Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

  7. #7
    LaoGo Guest
    Sounds like bunk to me. I have never met a person who could grag the arm of an internal art exponent andt cut off their chi. The whole thing sounds shake to me.

  8. #8
    8stepsifu Guest

    8 step has similar things

    I believe it. Also just keeping an eagle grip with a loose relaxed arm and body make it hard for a person to escape your grasp.

    8Step Sifu

  9. #9
    bean curd Guest

    chin na

    i suppose if someone makes a statement like this xing yi player, they have to have the ability to back up the words.

    there are so many ways that you can negate a chin na, you could write a book on it, but i am sure that everyone remembers the sun lu tang story, where a great martial expert from japan, came over and challenged sun lu tang to a fight.

    sun replied, that the expert could put him in a hold and also have one of his hands put behind his back.

    this was done, and the went to ground, sun then hit the japanese player in the chest/stomach, causeing him to spit blood.

    maybe there are two differences in the same situations stated.

    1. sun did not focus purely on the chin na, and
    2. sun knew his abilities, and was more than capable of winning.

    it like the old saying, "how good a swimmer are you???", "i'm very good, because i know how far i can swim!",

    regards

  10. #10
    les paul Guest

    Xingyi vs Grappling

    It's Reality check time....... "hello" Is anybody out there..... I know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this, but..... Based on the way most current Internal artist train I'd put all my money on a grappler. I think most internal artist greatly overestimate themselves and their art.

    From what I've seen "most" Xingyiquan, Taichiquan and Bagua are fake.

    Push Hands isn't sparring, either are all those two-man sets. Do you think dancing is learning how to fight? Most Chinese Internal practitioners are out of shape and have been hoodwinked into thinking they are really learning a martial art. Are you training with full contact? "I bet the answer is no". Do you take it to the floor when things go wrong? "I bet the answer is no again". Be advised "GRAPPLERS DO"! I study Aikido, Judo and "some" Taichiquan. I was only taught the long form of the Yang style and found it to be a "joke" (because they taught no applications). I've searched for a "real" Taichiquan Sifu and haven't found one (yet).

    Please realize doing the form is not learning how to defend yourself. Only with a lot of expermentation have I began to see the properties of the Taichiquan("yes" under full contact conditions in Judo and Aikido (i.e. Randori classes). I see a lot of merit to Taichiquan and Chinese Internal arts, it's to bad very few people know them.

    If you think I'm wrong by saying that most Taichiquan, Xingyi and Bagua are fake go down to the local Grappler dojo and hang out. They usally got an open night. Go see for yourself. Try out your Taichiquan or Xingyi/Bagua. I would advise you just to watch, but if you do decide to participate then...Better know how to fall real good and don't forget to tap the mat real loud! Good luck.... "most of you are going to need it..."


    signed....

    "Not impressed with the current state of Internal arts"

    Paul from Michigan

  11. #11
    bean curd Guest
    don't call me spanky, your right i won't i'll just call you wanky.

    thats about all your comment is worth.

  12. #12
    les paul Guest

    Bean curd?

    I can't believe I'm being called "wanky" by a guy that goes by the name "Bean curd". ha ha ha ha

    Come on give me some substance!

    If you think I'm wrong tell me why. Are you seeing something different than I am?
    Is the state if Internal arts different in your area?

    "nooooooo I think not!"

    If your practicing a legit art you have no need to be insecure.

    (right?)

    Change my mind through debate not name calling. I admitted to seeing merit in Taichiquan in my last post. Also, I'm not against Internal arts. I'm against the way they are practised. I believe the internal arts are greatly defficient because of a lack of real training.....nuff said

    Paul from Michigan

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

  13. #13
    Guest
    Paul,

    You sound like myself a couple years ago. I started out studying judo and while stationed overseas in the Marine Corps I began to study wing tsun which I'm still practicing(daily!).

    While taking leave in San Diego I had the opportunity to observe a Hsing-i class given by ShrFu Mike Patterson. What I saw totally changed my mind in regard to the internal arts. Do yourself a favor and check out his sight at www.hsing-i.com and go to the kuoshu section. The circuit workouts and sparring sessions were as intense as any workouts I had witnessed in various Bangkok tai gyms.

    Mind you these were his full contact fighters but they were the majority of the students I observed. If I were fortunate enough to live in SoCal that's where I would be training! I don't know about the quality of internal arts in Michigan but the hsing-i as practiced like this is definately an effective art.

    Later [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

  14. #14
    les paul Guest
    Jarhd 30

    I agree....

    I've heard about Sifu(Shrfu) Mike Patterson and have seen his website. I believe he's legit. I believe there are others who are also the "real deal", "but very very few in numbers".

    I think that's were the problem lies. I live in the greater Detroit area and for the life of me I can't find a legit Internal art. I respect all martial arts and it ticks me off to see people dumbing down an art to the point it's a mere dance. That's why I fired off in my first post.

    If Detroit in a "microcosm" of the state of internal arts throughout America (I believe it is) then when someone asks "how Xingyi would do against a grappler" they should get the truth.
    Both the Japanese and Korean striking art have fundemently change over the past 10 years because of grappler arts like jujitsu, wrestling and judo. The grappler styles have always been there, but the exchange of information and different-style compitition hasn't. I don't think these grappler styles are better than any other style (all have their pros and cons) but I think in the way they train that makes them better than most. I think internal artist don't train with the same intesity as other arts. It's not the art that's defective it's most of the paractioners. That is what I was trying to get accross in my first post.

    Paul from Michigan

  15. #15
    phantom Guest
    8step sifu, I just remembered that Sifu Chin claimed that it was an Eagle Claw grab in the Jow Ga style which the Hsing-I guy could not escape. Perhaps there is a connection between jow ga and 8 step mantis?

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