xingyi fighting clip

[Joseph_alb]

Hey Ford,


Regarding all the different styles looking the same, they had to, and still do look the same...but looking the same doesnt mean being the same, particulaily with Xingyi or any other "movement based" (principles) MA.

When you apply a move in a fight, a move you train in a certain form for example, the move isnt and most of the times shouldnt look exactly the same. Training it teaches angles, point of contacts, stepping, power generation, etc, things that arent exactly obvious and you can manifest and mix them in infinite ways, not just "exactly the move you would do if your doing a form".

But you have a point, some things are purely there for....i dont know what for. Should most certainly be discarded.

[Rockwood]

Ford P, ROT and y'all,

In the Xing Yi I learn, we seek to identify and train the "Jing" aka, rhythm, momentum, feeling, essence of each of the Xing Yi forms.

This is abve and beyond the specifics of the application. This is how internal martial arts are taught. Sure, there are great fighting moves in the forms. But the Jing is primary, and that can be applied to any movement.

Pi Quan is splitting movement. Whether I use a fist, foot, palm, arm, etc, I use the Pi Quan Jing to the best of my ability. As if an axe splitting wood. This can take many shapes, but it needs to be programed into the body as a certain... rhythm is the best word I can think of for it. This can only be felt, and is hard to see on video.

Same with Beng Quan, I can use any part of my body that I want, but the key is to grow and expand, always driving forward, eating my opponents space, relentlessly hitting in the gaps as they open. Again, you can only feel this first hand, it makes no sense from the outside and can indeed look like kickboxing. But the rhythm is different. The end result is the same, hitting someone as many times as necessary.

Pao Quan has an upward rising Jing, fast, easy to change, flickering like a flame, moving swiftly but surely from place to place. Alive and vicious. This is a feeling, a rhythm, a body sense that comes alive when trained the right way. It's not just a punch to the face, but that is among the possible ways of applying it.

IMO what makes Xing Yi and other IMA special is the mind training, and the training of the Jings that each specializes in. If you don't have that, then there's no reason to do Xing Yi beyond any other martial art.

When you meet someone who can really show you how these Jings are applied it will make sense. Until then it's really useless to argue over.

Bottom line, Xing Yi is not found in the moves you use, but in the way you bring them to life and apply them on someone else.

-Jess O

[Ford Prefect]

Joseph,

I understand what you're saying, but that isn't the point I was getting across. I know movements aren't always the same as you practice them. If I were to take you and show you the text-book double-leg takedown, it would most likely look a lot different during competition as it does against an unresisting opponent. I guess I'm talking more about modernizing TMA's. Widdle away unessentials. Drill technique against bags and mitts, and learn application in two man drills. Fight, fight, fight. Kind of like what the Yi Chuan guy did. I think it's possible to bring the TMA into modern times while still keeping the integrity of the style.


Rockwood,

I've trained in Ba Gua before and am familiar with jing/fa jing. As far as I know the goal isn't to look like an amateur boxer with poor footwork when fighting, and that is what that guy looked like. Many TMA schools I've trained at or checked out look similar. Now is this a problem inherent with the way TMA is being taught or the way it's being trained? If you want to claim that you don't look like that sparring, then please post a video. Everybody says that.

[Rockwood]

Hi Ford,

Unfortunately I can't watch the vid, my work box sucks, and I have dial up at home. Will try next week when I get back into town.

I think if I looked as good as an amatuer boxer that would be saying something! Those guys have a very high level of skill and athleticism. I only train an hour or two per day, and only spar a few times a month, so I'm nowhere near a golden gloves level.

Pi Quan is grabbing someone by the throat. Beng Quan is punching them in the face. Pao Quan is a fast punch to the chin or body. Tzuan quan is an upper cut. Heng Quan is a hook. But each can be many, many other things as well. So it's hard to say "That looks like Pi Quan." It's much easer to say "That FEELS like Pi Quan"

Xing Yi can look like everyone else. If you try to be fancy and try to LOOK like something in particular, it don't work too well. My goal is to bring the Jing to life within whatever technique or strike I'm doing. I don't worry too much about how it ends up looking.

If I use Pi Quan jing I might drive over your guard to hit you in the face. Or I might retreat and try to come up from underneath and grab your neck. Or I might attempt to arm lock you if you grab me. Doesn't matter what form it takes, the Pi Quan jing (s) is what I'm using, to the best of my ability.

I agree with you that demonstrating or teaching something looks different from using it in a play fight or sparring. The Jing may be the same but its so much faster and harder and sloppier that who can tell what's what?

All the Xing Yi people I know drill techniques with resisting opponents, spar free style and train the mind exercises and Jings. Some hit pads, I like to, while others stick to hitting people. I don't agree that this is modernizing it though, this is the way it's always been done by people who want to use it for application.

-Jess O

[Stranger]

who were the kung fu guys in the first four UFC's?

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is a fixed Hsing-I clip without all the sparring and music! I couldnt take out all the transitions, but it is still reasonably good!

I could only upload it to my Yahoo Briefcase. It is in a public folder and you will need a Yahoo ID to access it. Yahoo ID's are free! I don't know what the allowable download bandwidth is, but I will keep the file available in perpetuity!

It is encoded in Divx 5.2.1 so be sure to get the codec from divx.com if you dont have it.

If there are any other files anyone knows of they want fixed just e-mail where to get it and what you want done and i will be happy to oblige!!

It is still uploading and i need to get to work i will insert the link in a couple of hours!!

Enjoy!!!

[Reign-Of-Terror]

Im not saying people who spar or fight have to looke xactly like the form itself but they shou,ld at least be using the techniques manifested in the forms rather than wild punching and going ape**** because you have too much adrenaline and lack of trianing/sparring to figuare out what to do.

Scott, whats the link to your yahoo profile?

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok!!! Sorry it didnt get it up right away, but the file was uploading and i had to go to work!! I only get dial-up!!

Here is the link: I think you dont need a Yahoo ID to access it! I'm not sure:

Hsing-I Fixed

[Ford Prefect]

Stranger,

Delucia, a 5 animals guy, was in #2 I believe. There was a Wing Chun guy in there and Pa Kua guy as well, but the Pa Kua guy really didn't look like he knew anything. I think he even mispelled Pa Kua. Haha! There was a big wing chun in one of the early Japan Vale Tudo's that fought Rickson Gracie. There were others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Scott,

Good job with the clip. A question: Do you guys train like that? In the form, he left his punches dangling out there after he threw them instead of moving to retract them right away. I know that this can just be training, but that seems like it might ingrain some bad habits.

Rockwood,

I wasn't talking about the amateur boxer you'd see in the olympics. I'm talking about going to your local gym and watching random guys fight. The dance around a little a bit and then get into exchanges similar to those seen in this video. You'll see what I mean when you get access to it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ford Prefect,

I don't know if your question was addressed to me or to anyone in general, but i don't train in Hsing-I. I just happened to have the software to edit the clip and i wanted one with only the Hsing-I. I figured if I wanted one with out the sparring others would too, so that is why i made it available. I am happy to see was correct!

[Joseph_alb]

Hey Ford,

Are you familiar to xingyi?

[Reign-Of-Terror]

Stranger,

Delucia, a 5 animals guy, was in #2 I believe. There was a Wing Chun guy in there and Pa Kua guy as well, but the Pa Kua guy really didn't look like he knew anything. I think he even mispelled Pa Kua. Haha! There was a big wing chun in one of the early Japan Vale Tudo's that fought Rickson Gracie. There were others, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Scott,

Good job with the clip. A question: Do you guys train like that? In the form, he left his punches dangling out there after he threw them instead of moving to retract them right away. I know that this can just be training, but that seems like it might ingrain some bad habits.

Rockwood,

I wasn't talking about the amateur boxer you'd see in the olympics. I'm talking about going to your local gym and watching random guys fight. The dance around a little a bit and then get into exchanges similar to those seen in this video. You'll see what I mean when you get access to it.

no they throw the same punches they do in training; The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut. If they start swinging wildly and turning their whole body with a punch like untrained people do they will either egt their as kicked by the more experienced guy or a good boxing coach wills top them and correct it. By the way other people agree with my assumptions. For example on this thread:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24963
the moderator wrote:

So, let me see if I get this right:
Kung fu actually works IF the other guy doesn't know how to fight AND you get in a wild haymaker.

Cool...

And on this thread:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthre...t=24850&page=4
the same guy wrote:

As usual, if you were to put gi's on them, you would say they were doinh "karate", put shorts on them and they would be "kick boxing", etc, etc...

Xing-i, like taiji and bagua, is a very distinct system, with distinct moves, and while you see the distinctivness in the forms, you don't see it in sparring or fighting.

hes also been in macao and claims to have seen many kung fu masters fight and they all look the same.

[Ford Prefect]

Thanks, ROT... I boxed for years and with a national amateur champion. I wasn't so bad myself either. I have a pretty good grip of what you see in boxing gyms. Most guys showing poor form will indeed get handled by their opponent or their coach, but nearly everybody does it when they start sparring first and plenty of guys never progress past that stage. Only at mid-level and upper-level amateur bouts do you start seeing a lot more crisp technique and sticking and moving, and see them entirely depart from the instict to stand there and trade shots.

Coming from that live background I've always been very skeptical of what a style looks like in that environment. I've seen a fair amount of guys use kung fu well in that environment. One of the guys I trained MMA with had trained with a fella named Cartmell for years and used Xing Yi and Ba Gua as his main styles on the feet. It's not about the style, it's the training and the man.

Joseph,

Only on a conceptual level. I trained Ba Gua for a bit and ran into Xing Yi guys in training (they were cross-training in Ba Gua) and at seminars. I was never a student of the style although I've seen a little bit of it from those sources.

[BAI HE]

Well, if we're talking about that clip, there's a lot to be said.

First off, we don't know where he's at in the art. We don't know his experience lever, nor the rules. I some some good things and I saw some bad.

First off, he had a nice agressive attitude (all white guy). I understand why he was plugging away at the head, it's harder to hurt a well conditioned fighter to the body with a protector on. Furthermore, if it was bare-knuckle, as the art was intended? A few of those straights would have ended it. He also was strong on his feet and reveresed a takedown attempt.

The stuff I didn't like? Karate kicks, lack of lowline kicks and sweeps to set up throws and controls. Not a lot of angles or good counter-punching.
Xingyi training will teach you how to absorb or avoid a lot of your opponents power.

The fighting looked pretty basic. The thing that really stood out in my mind was a lack of whole body strategy. It wasn't All weapons. It was punch-kick, re-set or bulling into the opponent rather than taking angles and attacking in the Xingi strategy. Ford has a point about the footwork.

I understand the gloves make it really hard to execute as well.
If you don't believe me? One of Mr. Cartmell's students who has full contact experience stated as much.

So you can throw Xingyi "tearing" and Quinna out the window.


As far as the linking form, I think the guy was just going for connection. No fa, just smooth body movement. Depends what he was working on.

I don't know much about the clip, or the folks in it and I'm not really going to try and judge it too harshly. There's been some interesting concerns and good points. I would hope you don't judge the art by one clip.

BTW - R-O-T? Good to see you Enforcer.

[BAI HE]

It's not about the style, it's the training and the man.

One of the sanest and most truthful statements about Martial Arts or
any endeavor period.