Reign of Terror.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I think I had two weaknesses at that time. First was my clinch game, I just never really went over that with my teacher in too great of detail and he didn't want or know that I went out to fight. After he saw the video he worked with me and I think I've fixed the problem. I've actually been winning by striking out of the clinch lately.

The second thing was condition but I still don't believe in it. And this is one of those aspects of e-chuan that is different philosophically. We are not a sport style. The idea of condition, to me, is pumping yourself up, doing cardio work. But as soon as you take a few weeks off you lose it all already. If you are 15 years older than the other guy than you may have to condition exponentially more to get a similiar result. Instead, I've been focusing on budgeting the energy, making it count. Fights are lasting about 80 seconds right now. Maybe these guys aren't that good, but as I get better I'd like to keep it that way.

I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

This is not to say I won't ever go fight San Da or MT again, just that it's not interesting me now. I like knowing I have a fight about 2 weeks out and working technique heavily for that first week and then about 4 or 5 days before stop having sex and smoking and putting myself in the mindframe .... knowing the fight will only end one of two ways ..... he beats me to submission or I beat him to submission. No refs, no points, etc.

I'm actually going to start training tonight. My brother is getting married next Fri. and I'm the best man but after that I'd like to pick up 4 or 5 more of these fights, surf all summer, and see about entering a MMA event. I think the nearest one is in Virginia, right?

[SevenStar]

Well, I think I had two weaknesses at that time. First was my clinch game, I just never really went over that with my teacher in too great of detail and he didn't want or know that I went out to fight. After he saw the video he worked with me and I think I've fixed the problem. I've actually been winning by striking out of the clinch lately.

what type of striking are you doing from there? short punches and knees?

The second thing was condition but I still don't believe in it. And this is one of those aspects of e-chuan that is different philosophically. We are not a sport style. The idea of condition, to me, is pumping yourself up, doing cardio work. But as soon as you take a few weeks off you lose it all already. If you are 15 years older than the other guy than you may have to condition exponentially more to get a similiar result. Instead, I've been focusing on budgeting the energy, making it count. Fights are lasting about 80 seconds right now. Maybe these guys aren't that good, but as I get better I'd like to keep it that way.

considering that most pro level mma fights go longer than that, I would think it was the quality of the opponents. Also, fighting isn't really about cardio... it's mostly anaerobic. As it prolongs, cardio comes more into play, but it's largely anaerobic. printing and interval running, hard shadowboxing and bagwork, etc. help to train this.

I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

Once again, I'll use pro level mma as an example. As the skill of the fighters gets more equal, match lengths tend to get longer. you just can't end EVERY fight that quickly.

I'm actually going to start training tonight. My brother is getting married next Fri. and I'm the best man but after that I'd like to pick up 4 or 5 more of these fights, surf all summer, and see about entering a MMA event. I think the nearest one is in Virginia, right?

Cool. I would think that there are some in new york, but I KNOW there are some in jersey.

[FatherDog]

I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

Watch the IVC. Watch the early UFC. In both of these venues, there were bare knuckles, elbows and forearms and strikes allowed anywhere. Most fights lasted longer than 2 to 3 minutes. Many fights lasted upwards of ten minutes.

Your "guarantee" is based on very limited experience and will be proved wrong over and over again if you fight anyone good (or just anyone tough).

If you care more about taco bell and bong hits than you do about becoming a good fighter, that's fine; it doesn't make you a bad person. But don't try to use "well, the kind of fighting I like will never last longer than 2-3 minutes" as an excuse, because it's bull****.

[Ray Pina]

The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.

I give it all on the first exchange. Sort of what I'd imagine sword fighting is like. Perhaps there is a stage of feeling out, but when you go swing you swing to kill. Kill or be kill right then.

Either I overwhelm the guy right there or he reverses it and overwhelms me. If I fail to put the guy down after three exchanges I'm not good enough.

I agree, I haven't had too tough of competition. Only one guy was a real tough SOB. But then again, these are the guys that are showing up to do this type of figthing. There must be a whole slew of guys who are too good for this, because it's not as easy as you'd think to get guys to show up for these fights .... and believe me, I try to recruit from all venues.

FatherDog you are right. I'm coming out of a "taking it easy phase" and beginning serious training for some fights. But I am not a pro. When I finish what I'm doing now I think I could get some higher-level fights. And when I do, I'll eat, sleep and breath my training.

But I still strongly believe that conditioning is important for the UFC type of fighters .... when everybody is doing the same thing it comes down to little edges like conditioning, nutrition. But if you are doing something different.....

If we all use single action rifles, well, the side that has 500 men has an advantage over the side with 150 men. But if we have 150 men with automatic M-16 .... we can very well hold off 1,000 men with single action rifles if we position ourselves correctly.

I know I am learning technology that is not out there right now. I am out there. I'm seeing what's out there. I know folks are very adomant about telling me NO, it's all the same. But I have gone to the best schools to see their styles first hand .... I know they haven't seen E-Chuan. There is only one place in the world to see it. And that is at my master's.

I take all of this very seriously. I enjoy it tremendously and I respect what these MMA are doing, just that I believe in the technological advantage that I am learning and staking everything on it.

Look what the Gracies did when they first arrived on the scene. I honestly think I have the opportunity to do the same thing ..... but part of the point is that the older guy can beat the younger guy, the smaller guy the bigger guy, the regular guy the athletic guy.

[lkfmdc]

Ray, you're a nice guy and I like you so please try and forgive me. But don't you think you're on the verge of becoming Egyptian royalty? King of De Nile?

Gloves, shin guards and head gear do provide some protection, but to say you weren't able to fight because of them is a cop out. This last Sat, with all that gear, 5 of the 8 matches we held were KO's.

The stuff you write about conditioning is sadly, and please do try and soak this in, a joke.... it's an excuse not to be in good shape. It's yet another myth of the so called internal martial art..

When technique is equal, the bigger, stronger, better conditioned man is going to win, period. Some times the bigger stronger better conditioned guy is going to beat the more technical guy if his conditioning is enough to make up the difference.

How long have you been training? You did Bak Mei before you did E-Chuan didn't you? You thought your skills were high enough you took on students didn't you?

When you fought on my card you fought an 19 year old kid with no fights and 6 months of JKD/Muay Thai training.....

He was also close to 9 pounds lighter than you were if I remember correctly.

In theory, your martial arts experience and higher technique should have made the match one sided.

SOmething for you to consider

[hjt]

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.


good examples of agressive fighters that were once good mike tyson and vitor beltford, but look at them now, dont have the conditioning and now lose to b class fighters.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

David, how did Ray Pina do in that fight you mentioned?

[SevenStar]

The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.

you have people who are equally as aggressive. You also have those that are excellent at neutralizing that aggression and keeping their distance. Like I said, when skill levels become more equal, you'll see longer matches.

I give it all on the first exchange. Sort of what I'd imagine sword fighting is like. Perhaps there is a stage of feeling out, but when you go swing you swing to kill. Kill or be kill right then.

I dunno if that's always the greatest strategy... That's probably why you gassed in the san shou fight...

Either I overwhelm the guy right there or he reverses it and overwhelms me. If I fail to put the guy down after three exchanges I'm not good enough.

I dunno man, that's a bit harsh. If that's the case, pro fighters - in any venue - are also not good enough.

I agree, I haven't had too tough of competition. Only one guy was a real tough SOB. But then again, these are the guys that are showing up to do this type of figthing. There must be a whole slew of guys who are too good for this, because it's not as easy as you'd think to get guys to show up for these fights .... and believe me, I try to recruit from all venues.

It's not that they are too good for it, it's just the places that you are looking. you are holding throwdowns - just a local level, small time tournament, really. You are expecting people to come to you - and at a small time event. It doesn't necessarily work that way. YOU have to go to THEM. Using thai boxing as an example, you can find people to fight locally, but for some definite good competition, hit the nationals in florida this summer. You can grapple locally, but to really test yourself, go to the NAGA. The people are out there, but you have to seek them.

But I still strongly believe that conditioning is important for the UFC type of fighters .... when everybody is doing the same thing it comes down to little edges like conditioning, nutrition. But if you are doing something different.....

If we all use single action rifles, well, the side that has 500 men has an advantage over the side with 150 men. But if we have 150 men with automatic M-16 .... we can very well hold off 1,000 men with single action rifles if we position ourselves correctly.

I know I am learning technology that is not out there right now. I am out there. I'm seeing what's out there. I know folks are very adomant about telling me NO, it's all the same. But I have gone to the best schools to see their styles first hand .... I know they haven't seen E-Chuan. There is only one place in the world to see it. And that is at my master's.

There was a thread about this - MP and I had examples in boxing and grappling of everything you said was different about e chuan. Maybe we just need to see it though, can you post clips of the specific things that are different?

And even if it is different, I wouldn't rely solely on that. I'll adress that in the next section.

I take all of this very seriously. I enjoy it tremendously and I respect what these MMA are doing, just that I believe in the technological advantage that I am learning and staking everything on it.

Look what the Gracies did when they first arrived on the scene. I honestly think I have the opportunity to do the same thing ..... but part of the point is that the older guy can beat the younger guy, the smaller guy the bigger guy, the regular guy the athletic guy.

if you rely solely on your technology, you will quickly begin to fail. We are a culture of adaptation. If what you are doing is that effective and you are that successful with it, it will get assimilated. Keeping with your example, look at the gracies. What tey were doing at the time was truly different. Now, it's par for the course. Once that happens, it goes back to where it started - as skill level equals, matches lengthen. What will make the difference are things like strength and conditioning.

[Ray Pina]

Coach Ross, SevenStar, Etc.

I'll talk about condition like this:

These guys are very conditioned. Look at any individual part and its better conditioned than mine. But if they blow up their bicep and they blow up their tricep, but when they strike the bicep and tricep are actually cancelling each other out to equal degrees because both want to do the job ....

I'm not in bad condition now. Not like I was for that fight, but I still don't talk about condition. All of my guys may be less built up individually, but they don't cancel each other out -- they work together.

Mr. Ros. at the time of that fight I was training with my master for 18 months, coming from an external background. It took about 2.5 years just to get the basics so I could start receiving the good stuff, which I'm starting to now. It's funny, I think I get something real good and then my master shows me something else that completely makes me feel inferior and insecure -- because what if someone else has it too, etc..

Anyway, this is too much talking already for martial artists. You are not an old man. Want to arrange a match? I can demonstrate some of these ideas to you and get to play with a high-ranking disciple of Master Chan Tai San at the same time. It will be lovely.

If not, I will also be willing to play with a student of your choice. I know you guys are ring oriented, so right now I'm 190. I'll fight in your ring if you want but no gear nor rounds. Let it go until someone taps.

My brother is getting married this weekend and I'll be out of town for a week. I'll be back next Fri. Let me know.

[lkfmdc]

I answered you on the Chan Tai San thread, but don't post more there....

[Ray Pina]

It's not that they are too good for it, it's just the places that you are looking. you are holding throwdowns - just a local level, small time tournament, really. You are expecting people to come to you - and at a small time event. It doesn't necessarily work that way. YOU have to go to THEM. Using thai boxing as an example, you can find people to fight locally, but for some definite good competition, hit the nationals in florida this summer. You can grapple locally, but to really test yourself, go to the NAGA. The people are out there, but you have to seek them..

SevenStar, I hear what you are saying and you are right and I apreciate your constructive critism. I don't want to go out to a "real" venue until I have closer to 80% of my master's hand-to-hand .... I want to make sure I beat everyone and do the style justice.

At the same time, I'm not holding these Throwdowns in some backwoods community. I'm holding them in Midtown Manhatttan .... guys are coming in from as far as Philly. I'm also going to the national Throwdown in Atlanta this Sept.

Also, I don't expect everyone to come to me. I even offered to drive down to you to spend time with you and MP. And I'll still buy the food and drinks if I can't show you some new technology.

But all in all you're right. I know I have to go out there someday. Right now I'm jamming in my garage and playing small bars and clubs type of gigs. But I'm working my guitar, know what I mean.

When the time is right I'll hit the big stage .... I know I will. I just need to follow the path I feel in my heart.

But truly, thanks. What you're saying is important.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

I want to talk about ego for a second. Ego is the most dangerous thing a competitor can have. Contrary to popular opinion, ego doesn't care about winning, and has nothing to do with confidence, or even ****iness. Ego cares only about perceptions: yours and that of other people.

Ego will prevent you from giving your all in a match. It is better to your ego to have lost a close match to a tough opponent, than take the risks necessary to win, and possibly be just another guy that opponent walked through.

Ego will invent excuses for you to preserve your own self perceptions: "Oh, he's just a natural athlete," "Oh, he's just younger than me, "Oh, I'm tired today," "Oh, I'm just not very focused today."

One of the things ego loves to latch on to is "If only I had been in better condition, I would have won." The implication here is "I am actually better than he is, but I didn't take this very seriously, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not in very good condition, so it doesn't much matter." That's very ego preserving, which the ego loves. It keeps that mental self-image.

A fighter with an ego problem will never go out in the technical, physical and mental shape that he should, because it gives him a way out. It gives him a way to say "if only," and preserve that ego. They now have nothing to lose - but they also have nothing to win. If you can beat the guy without being at your peak technical, physical, and mental shape, then there's no challenge there. But losing doesn't hurt because there's a ready made excuse in there.

A fighter with no ego problem trains for a fight like it's the most important thing in his life. And when he steps out there, he fights like it doesn't matter. He's at the peak of his mental, physical and mental condition. He's got EVERYTHING to lose, and no excuses if he does. That's something ego really hates - a loss with no way out, because the ego only wants to preserve itself.

In my mind, this is what the old adages about "To master your enemy, you must first master yourself," and "leave it all out there," really mean.

At any rate, what I'm seeing is the same thing I critiqued you for after your fight. I gave you props for stepping in the ring, but said not to use conditioning as an excuse. I'm seeing the same thing now.

When you fought, you QUIT. Let me say that again - you QUIT. That's an ego problem, not a conditioning problem. An egoless fighter would have answered the bell, win or lose. Quitting was one way for ego to preserve itself that day.

Saying the things you say about condition, and talking about why the fights are short, etc, are just ego preservation. Not being in condition provides you a way out for losing.

Let me say that again. Not being in condition is an excuse; ignoring conditioning is a way to ensure that excuse stays put - your ego will thank you for it.

I want to make it clear that I am not blaming you for quitting. YOU didn't quit. Your ego did. I AM blaming you for not mastering your ego. This is an acquired skill for most people, takes practice, and requires constant maintanence of that skill.

You need to take a good hard look at yourself and figure this out.

I only get to tell you this because I've been through it. It took me years to get it all to sink it. I think you will read this and it won't even make a dent. You will tell me that I am wrong, and that you appreciate my input, but that it's genuinely not about that, it's really about the philosophy/technology/etc. You will cite your willingness to go against anybody as an indication that your ego is not a problem -except that I have just outlined how you can still compete and have an ego problem.

Your comments about conditioning are nothing more than an excuse. It's that simple, but that doesn't make the solution easy. It's a choice, and it's not an easy one at all.

None of this is meant in anger, although it reads pretty harsh. Sorry to hear you will be out of town this weekend. I'm coming up! My thesis will be signed next Wednesday - perhaps we can do something before I leave in August.

[Reggie1]

Wow. Nice post. I think all of us can take something from that.

[Mutant]

Wow MP, thats some pretty profound sh!t. AWESOME post.

[FatherDog]

Great post, MP.

I've noticed this kind of behavior from people at the gym - everybody's seen that guy that just wants to roll with people smaller and less experienced than him, so he can feel good about dominating him, but there's also that guy that constantly goes after guys much, much bigger than him, so he has a ready-made excuse for when he loses - the weight and strength was "just too much" for him (never mind that they pulled guard and spun into an omoplata - clearly it was just the strength and weight).

Your post articulated the basis of the problem - ego - a bit better than I had worked it out in my head.