Yi Jin Jing

[bung bo]

any of you that have done the muscle/tendon change classic for a while--how much has your power and health improved. also, after you started reaping the benefits from the yi jin jing, was the power subconscious (when sparring or doing two-person drills, did you consciously have to call upon this new strength). i was guessing not, but i'm not for sure. i was thinking since the new and improved qi flow in your muscles was already there, it would be an effortless expenditure. thanks in advance for any and all advice.

[backbreaker]

I don't know if I do exactly what other people do but I've benefited some in speed and power from these type of exercises. At times I go from being relaxed to instantly tense and do a movement, which has improved my speed training, and also though made my body more solid and seemingly dense. It's weird, but kind of like squeezing say, my arms, and right into the bones but also the exterior like muscles and tendons, developing into force in a path inside the arms right out the palms, and then back into the palms along the backs of the arms. I also train the belt energy path

It seems strange, training bones and tendon, WTF? But I think it just is a solidness from instantly tensing with the muscles of the whole body, but especially the arms and legs at first and also is coordinated with reverse breathing and clenching toes and feet. There are some practices though that are stationary and done like 49 times each or something right?

In Taijiquan , the legs I think must be solid; the legs should not be able to be moved if pushed on, or struck, due to just being dense and solid and working as a unit, so there is some similarity at least .

So some speed , from balancing quickly tensing and relaxing , and also some whole body connected power structure and paths of internal force. I haven't been doing this sort of training enough lately

[blooming lotus]

I have been familiar with qi and qigong for many years now...to me it's like the internal oxygen and cultivating or doing somesort of soft qigong several times a day it's rare that I'm not aware...so to answer your question.... yes..it is now a natural phenonmena available at all times and is just part of the way I move

[Repulsive Monkey]

Backbreaker are you sure you're doing it right if your body tenses up? Somehow that doesn't seem right at all!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Tensing-up"... there's a whole topic worth of concepts..

Based on my own experience, i sense that the tension is more appropriately referred to as "substance".. i have never seen anyone bloodied/bludgeoned by a piece of silk (limp and without substance).. yet, rigid and tensed lacks power and speed, it also is susceptable to breakage and tearing.. so, i believe that a relaxed "springy" posture adds substance while maintaining a soft neutrality..

Tension is also like increasing resistence to an electrical current, it slows the flow and increases heat.. During Zhan Zuang i sometimes test the students by pressing on their forearms.. i am hoping to see the frame and arms yield slightly while storing the pressing energy in the legs and torso.. as i extend the pressure forward i hope to feel increasing substance until i am over-extended and the stored energy is returned or released to one side pulling me off-balance.. what i don't hope to see is resistance.. the yielding, compressing and sinking stores sufficient energy to overcome the emptying and extended press..

Careful attention is useful in attending to the wave-like contribution of the spine.. as we store energy in our compressed torso (sinking in conjunction with reverse breathing/inhaling) the spine is a useful vehicle for releasing that energy in a powerful wave-like motion.. a whip-like action that sends a flood of energy into the shoulders and arms.. The Yi Jin Jing as was taught to me seems to emphasize this relationship, another QiGong set called Dragon Gate Qigong is also a good tool for highlighting this connection.. Too little attention is paid to the musclature and tendon structure of the back/spine including the Psoas which connect the spine to the hips/pelvis.. The muscle tendon changing exercises are not isolated or isolating.. they should be examined in conjunction with the whole system..

Sorry if i strayed too far from the topic, Be well...

[backbreaker]

Repulsive Monkey- I'm pretty sure that's how I was taught in the shaolin damo qigong I leaned. The mind directs the enrgy in a path while you breathe out with reverse breathing, then you tense the muscles clench the toes opening the feet points and focus on the energy in the palms. I have never had a problem from the tensing in this set, but it could be possible I guess if you did it wrong especially when tensing the abs, back or chest muscles. This qigong is both hard and soft , for healing and martial arts, part hard qigong and part gentle qigong. The only time I had aproblem in qigong was years ago when I was a kid I would combine Yang Taiji with qigong from a video and books, this would sometimes make me nuatious but not actually puke after the practice, I stopped doing it and now I have no qigong problems at all doing this Damo gong , the 49 tensing exersices, Taijiquan, or Wild Goose

I have also learned stationary exercises where you tense 49 times in each posture and have seen these exercises elsewhere in books. Maybe someone does some yi jin chin type exersises that do not use tension?

[backbreaker]

I looked up yi chin ching on the internet, and the sites I found did not use tension. Many movements were similar or even the same as what I do, but I tense at the end of the movement and contract the toes and hui yin point. Maybe what I'm thinking is a little different from the standard version.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have been pondering the original question for a while.. and, i sense that the power is not sub-conscious.. it is in the clarity and focus of your intention.. my mind does not tell the Qi where to go, it expresses the intention and the Qi moves the body to execute the intent.. the degree of clarity and focus with which we intend a result, is the degree of speed and power with which our body responds.. of course, practice (and lots of it) provides the necessary familiarity with our complex body/mind/spirit relationship to permit skilled execution of a clear and focused intention..

Just another perspective, Be well...

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Good posts TCB.
I find that the energy is there when it is needed and that it just happens. Often I have to be careful in shaking hands to not let it out (hurt someone once...totally unintentional) Often with my students, I think I am just lightly touching them in demonstrating a technique...but they are getting hurt...so I make sure to tense a little to stop the flow of internal power...but it is darn uncomfortable.
There is a balance to power...too tense and you do not develop it, too limp and you do not develop it. To develop it one has to be sung...not relaxed per say as some interpret this as limp. I prefer to translate it as loose.

GHD

[bung bo]

backbreaker--the yi jin jing i do, i've read that some do tense their muscles very slighty on the exhale (to aid in concentration). also, i thought focusing on the baihui and yongquan points and reverse breathing (in this exercise) was a daoist nei dan practice (i might be wrong). how does this play alond with a buddhist (prenatal breathing) wai dan exercise. just curious.

[backbreaker]

I really don't know for sure, as I certainly am no expert. My experience though is that the taoist styles I've learned did not use breathing techniques. I can only guess that reverse breathing could possibly be buddhist, or possibly of an older origin, or else that the labels are not absolute and concrete. I think the body takes in energy and releases energy, so opening the bai hui , lao gong , etc. is important in both schools from what I've seen. And there are many similarities, chakras are in both schools and are pretty much the same, there are 6 healing sounds in both. So, maybe reverse breathing is in both as a coincidence because both schools have the same goal in the end and similar priciples, or maybe even though lineages were preserved and kept secret often there was cross training far back in time. I don't know, but many things are not exlusive to one school or another. In the Damo qigong I learned that comes from Chin chee Ching from singapore, there are 72 reverse breaths, standing meditation, 72 abdominal breaths, and more standing meditation in low satnces. It makes sense to me that if Damo practiced Yoga type exercises, there could be reverse breathing. And you never know, maybe someone claims to be either budhist or Taoist because anything else at that period of time would be looked down on, or maybe the people writing the history or story got it wrong. Maybe this requires someone more experienced than me to explain.

[bung bo]

there are so many different sources of info., it' confusing sometimes. i've been to a website that said sevenstar mantis is largely soft style and the sevenstar mantis i've been taught is very external. most of my info. is from stuff by dr. yang, jwing ming.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

I have been pondering the original question for a while.. and, i sense that the power is not sub-conscious.. it is in the clarity and focus of your intention.. my mind does not tell the Qi where to go, it expresses the intention and the Qi moves the body to execute the intent.. the degree of clarity and focus with which we intend a result, is the degree of speed and power with which our body responds.. of course, practice (and lots of it) provides the necessary familiarity with our complex body/mind/spirit relationship to permit skilled execution of a clear and focused intention..

Just another perspective, Be well...

exactly ...I think if you can remain with an ufettered mind or return to, your qi will be at its' strength

[Scythefall]

The Muscle tendon change we do(I Jin Ching) uses dynamic tension and a four directions movement. This is unusual from what I've seen in books and other schools.

Just as an example, in the first position: Sitting in a tripod stance with the palms flat in front of you, arms held in a circular pattern in front of you. Inhale and as you exhale tense every muscle. The first time you do this you'll leave the hand position as they are. The second breath, as you tense on the exhale, you'll also push the hands forward(away from you). The third breath you'll pull the hands back toward you. The fourth breath, you'll push the hands away from each other and on the fifth, they'll move towards each other.

that's not meant to teach anyone, but hopefully it's descriptive enough so that it's understandable.

The increased circulation is apparent immediately, but you can do that just flexing any muscle group. It took me some time before I started feeling the chi generation and saying "Okay..that movement circulates chi to the palms the same as "Propping the Heavens" in 8 Sections of Brocade.

The dynamic tension ensures that the circulation is saturating the entire system: Muscles all the way down to the tendons and bones. If you use a wire-whip afterwards and follow your meridians, you'll even stimulate circulation and chi flow in the bones and marrow. Kind of a short version of Iron Shirt, but it's a start

I don't know if Yi Jin Jing is exactly the same or not and I'm not really familiar with doing the exercise as a muscle tendon change without using muscle and tendon, but that's not saying much, because there are more versions of things than I can count! I've even seen 8 Pieces of brocade done as hard chi kung.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by bung bo
backbreaker--the yi jin jing i do, i've read that some do tense their muscles very slighty on the exhale (to aid in concentration). also, i thought focusing on the baihui and yongquan points and reverse breathing (in this exercise) was a daoist nei dan practice (i might be wrong). how does this play alond with a buddhist (prenatal breathing) wai dan exercise. just curious.

don't quote me on the rest but as far as I understand, wai is relating to the external systems like organs etc, nei to the internal, yin ....


hope it helps your practice