Question to Sifu Ross regarding theory on Tekki-kata

[Gringorn]

Hi.

This is my first post on this forum, so please be gentle with me.

I've been reading up on the Chan Tai San-thread. Amazing stories by the way, and probably the best and most entertaining thread I've read on any MA-forum ever. A great read.

On "page" 20 you said something that chaught my interest, however, but was never adressed again. Since this is off-topic in regards to the Chan Tai San-stories, I thought I'd post this here instead.

Page 20:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&page=20&pp=15

Quote:

"Chris, since we are discussing two man sets, want to share with them your Tekki Kata theory???"

Please, could you elaborate on this? I've been hoping this would be adressed, but it was never mentioned again.

(By the way, I'm a former shotokan practitioner turned CMA-addict, though no more than a fresh newbie)

[lkfmdc]

in other words........

DECONSTRUCTION IT

[rogue]

Gringorn

Naihanchi being half of a two man set has been put forth by Patrick McCarthy. His interpretation is very interesting as it's based upon believable reactions of the missing man. If you can attend one of his seminars do so.

[WanderingMonk]

well, as luck would have it, he will be in New York, on Long Island in a week and a half doing a seminar - serendipity?

or is it .....
FATE

[rogue]

Chris you can try but your best bet is to go to the seminar since he covers alot of history and how he researched his work. I think if you introduce yourself and tell him who your sifu was it might perk up his ears. I don't know him well but I did get to socialize with him a little after the seminars and he was a blast.

[Gringorn]

Thanks for the great replies.
If I wasn't curious before, I am now.

I have done CMA for less than a year (ouch), but already it has put my former shotokan-training in a wholly different perspective.

Unfortunately, sine I live in Norway, I won't have a chance to check out any of Mr. McCarthy's seminars. But thanks for the link, and thanks for the replies. Interesting stuff.

[rogue]

the apps are all joint locking reversals and trapping exchanges

Chris that is almost exactly what hanshi McCarthy showed, his take on it was that your opponent is not as skilled and is resorting to common street techniques to try to counter you. The following from his page makes sense to me.

In particular, he (McCarthy) often questioned the value of teaching learners to respond to reverse punches, back fists and sidekicks when it is clearly not representative of violent encounters. More importantly, if karate was just about punching and kicking, as was pontificated from the highest sources, he speculated as to the need for kata in the first place.

talking about the range at which the techniques operate - close in - and how to get there/what to do once you're at close range;

You got that right.

Chris if you want PM me your contact info. I'm going to try and get to one of his seminars this summer and I'll gladly pass it on to him when I get there.

[rogue]

That's great Chris, if you go let us know what you thought of it. Be ready to see many black belts looked surprised at some of what's shown.

and besides, don't you think it's wiser to assume that your opponent is as good or better than you are?

There are alot of variables in that statement. Better how? If we are in the ring with all things being equal and you are better than me then you win. If I'm walking down the street with my head in the clouds and you smack me in the head with a brick from behind you win even if I'm technically better than you. If I assumed that someone was better than me I'd be beating a hasty retreat the heck out of there. The way I see it, it's a rare thing for the better person to lose without outside help.

But Chris, check with McCarthy about this. I'm going by what I think he means and I could be wrong.

[cerebus]

This sounds exactly like the book "Zen Shaolin Karate" by Nathan Johnson. Though some might be turned off by the title, it's actually a very good book. Johnson's background is also in Karate, Southern Mantis, Tai Chi, etc. Check out Johnson's book. It's very worthwhile.

[bonetone]

I read a book recently called "Shotokan's Secret: the Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins" by Bruce Clayton, PH D. In the book he says the naihanchi kata was perhaps brought back from China by Matsumura and altered to fit the Shuri-te bodygaurd fighting neccessities. his explanaion was that the Shuri Castle bodygaurds would have the officials behind them against a wall protecting them from advancing enemy, and slowly side step to an opening in the wall where they could flee. he states that pretty much only Shuri-te stlyes practices naihanchi kata extensively because of the roots of this bodygaurd neccessity. You are creating a protective barrier as you perform one puch kills or knockouts to the front and sometimes to the sides as you move sideways along the wall so the officials you are protecting can get away. Its an ok book, but there is much speculation.

[bonetone]

Well, you really have to know the context in which the Shuri-te masters were working in. Supposedly the Shuri-te bodygaurds were protecting the officials in the meeting hall of the Shuri Castle grounds. They came up with specefic conditions and techniques they would have to use. Shuri-te and its kata are all from elitie bodyguards from the nobles of Okinanaw. its probably hard for you to comprehend all of this in the 21st century but at one time people had to come up with plans of fighting in specific scenarios. Shuri-te is not peasant farmer karate, it is bodyguard fighting. Thy were not armed because of the lawas inplace, their fists were weapons. Take a look at the knuckles of the old karate masters and you **** yourself. These guys did not **** around. they pounded makiwara boards till the dawns early light. Just except it, you will never be as hard as the Shuri-te masters. They would side step your feeble attack and tenderize you for breakfast meat.

[rogue]

Bruce Clayton's book was interesting but it made many leaps without anything to back them up. And everybody knows that Naihanchi was used to fight on a narrow bridge.

all excellent points - better can mean a lot of things - in general, my thinking is that it's not just assuming that your opponent is not just going to stand there and let you beat him senseless (and obviously McCarthy thinks this way as well) but that he may actually "correctly" counter some of what you do - either via his technical training or that he's a crazy MF and "accidently" do something that you have to deal with; - also, whereas 20 years ago most people had no MA training, now many more have, in one way or another, so in a sense the average "guy on the street" will have more technical know-how than before - but, I still agree that there are many variables, and it may well be that i am the one who is delusional...

Naw, we're all on the same page and we all may be crazy.

I agree with you that the martial arts training of the opponent is something that has to be considered and arts are sometimes built around that. Thanks to the BJJ guys alot of us have had to adjust for the infamous BJJ white belt as well as the TKD flicky kicky black belt. Add into that the number the people that just watch boxing, wrestling and UFC and you have a large number of non-MA who have at least seen what to do during a fight and may try some of what they've seen.

. You are creating a protective barrier as you perform one puch kills or knockouts to the front and sometimes to the sides as you move sideways along the wall so the officials you are protecting can get away.

Bonetone, I'd think that they'd have used better body mechanics if that was so. Naihanchi dachi isn't the most stable stance to take a head on attack with, and punching across the body is also weak. I agree with Chris in that naihanchi may have been flattened out for some reason. Look at pictures of Choki Motubo using the techniques from the kata.

[jimbob]

Chris

I've known Patrick for quite a few years - he's a good friend. From what you say, I think you'll have a great time working out with him. He'd be thrilled too, to have someone from a CMA background in attendance at one of his workshops. He's a fantastic teacher and full of stories. I hope you enjoy your time with him.

[bonetone]

You just aren't educated enough to have a debate wiith. You will still never be a hard karate bodyguard with knuckes thicker than a cacthers mitt. Nor will you understand what it take to get your men to safety. Still there is lots of room for peasant kung fu, there is thousands of styles, I'm sure you'll grab hold of one of them. Take peace in knowing you are are among billions that are not fit for a Shuri-te bodyguard.

[bonetone]

I'm sure Chotoku Kyan were alive he'd whip your as and break your neck for you r big shot talk