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Thread: Question to Sifu Ross regarding theory on Tekki-kata

  1. #16
    Its ok if you're a pus. Just admit son. And you baffle me i must admit. what are you talking about? I'm sorry If you can;t grasp had stylr karate for your pathetic wu shu world, oh wel just another face in the dust. As for my grammar, sorry I can't be among the supior race of ****heads but I was born in Ukraine and am of the Rom. If you have a probllam, well so do most.
    Last edited by bonetone; 07-02-2005 at 10:01 AM.

  2. #17
    Yeah, Nathan Johnson's book is really very interesting and well done. It cover's the Naihanchi and Sanchin katas with the view that Naihanchi is originally all chin na. It also gives instruction in the use of push hands for developing instictive reactions in grappling range (reading the opponents intention through his hands/ arms). It's published by Tuttle and is often available in book stores.
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  3. #18
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    Zen Shaolin Karate is one of the things that got me looking at Sanchin as an application-rich form.
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  4. #19
    WHAT? No, I can fix that....
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  5. #20
    Okay Chris, check your PMs.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash
    Zen Shaolin Karate is one of the things that got me looking at Sanchin as an application-rich form.
    Isshinryu sanchin

    This karate style is built on sanchin Check out the video titled '1991 All Okinawan Karate Championships' sanchin is the third kata shown in the video. Vash the first two kata on the video are seisan which might interest you. The fourth one might be sanseiru.

    Check out the one titled SANSEIRU by a Jim Maloney. This one looks like it might have some Chinese influence. That stomping step looks familiar but I can't place it.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

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  7. #22
    Oh yeah. Uechi Ryu is about as "Southern Chinese" as any Karate style out there. Even Goju Ryu doesn't look as "Gung Fu-ish" as Uechi.
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  8. #23
    Im not shure what magazine I read it but I think its black belt or a article reprinting an older article in blackbelt where one of Oyama's students talks about kyoushin. He says that todays fighters have evolved and the techniques today are superior than Oyama and fighters of his time using kyoukishin.

  9. #24
    Sounds like Bluming, but I don't see how it relates to what we're talking about.

    Oh yeah. Uechi Ryu is about as "Southern Chinese" as any Karate style out there. Even Goju Ryu doesn't look as "Gung Fu-ish" as Uechi.
    cerebus what southern styles does Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu look like? Except for WC I haven't seen any other Southern styles so I can't compare them.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  10. #25
    5 Ancestor Fist (Ngo Cho Kune) bears a STRONG resemblance to Okinawan Shorei Ryu (including having Saam Chien/ San Chin). There are a few others as well. Personally, I think alot of Uechi Ryu looks like Bak Mei (claw hands & phoenix-eye fists).
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  11. #26
    well it does relate because that guy you guys were calling a troll kept saying how the okinawans would rip our hearts out.

  12. #27
    LOL. But since he (like someone else here, eh ROT?) is a troll, anything he says can be disregarded...
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  13. #28
    Mmmmm, ketchup.....
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt

    just to give you some idea though, the "theory" (which is mine, it is my theory - A. Elk...) involves the origin of the forms, not in terms of who or where, but the what and how - in other words, what is the real deal with the forms, the "inner" workings? in terms of fighting (theory and practical application), healing and internal practice / self-cultivation? what's in a name? and what's missing? in order to come up with the answers to these questions, I have drawn on my experience in / knowledge of Shotokan / TKD (Mo Duk Kwan specifically), Okinawan karate, southern Chinese short hand systems, tai chi, Taoist internal practice and TCM; anyway, based on what's already been posted you should be able to figure it out yourself with a little leg work...
    Don't you mean Naihanchi? If you only know the diluted Tekki version then you will get very little from its practice.

    If you guys need any info on Okinawan kata just ask the Okinawan yudansha, like me. Conjecture means diddly.

    Of course there is a strong connection between the Ryukyu Islands and China. They were a tributary of China for centuries, even during the Satsuma occupation. Thirty-six Chinese families set up a village in Kume prefecture on Okinawa for cultural and economic exchange.

    My styles founder (and arguably the founder of most modern karate styles) was Matsumura Sokon (Bu Be Tatsu or Wu Cheng Cheng-Da) the chief palace guard for three Okinawan kings. He was sent to the location of the original Fukien Shaolin Temple by King Sho Tai and learned for many years, returning with added MAs knowledge. Hohan Soken said that he may have studied for over 2 decades. He returned to Fuzhou some years after his initial trip to further his studies with Iwah Sifu and Wai shin Zan Sifu. From this comes the MMA known as Shuri Te (later Matsumura Seito Shorin), an amalgam of Shaolin Chuan'Fa, Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (Satsuma Clan's fighting system), and Okinawan Ti.

    The name of our highest level kata is "Hakutsuru" which means "White Crane".

    I could give you all the proof you need but it's a holiday I have to go celebrate.
    Last edited by 'MegaPoint; 07-04-2005 at 02:17 PM.
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  15. #30
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    I think this guy (Steve Morris) has some interesting things to say about the connection between chinese kung fu and okinawan karate. See what you think:

    Biography - scroll down

    Some quotes about sanchin

    Question
    'I'd like to know if you think that kata serve any useful purpose at all when it comes to preparing for a streetfight type of situation.Do you think that they can be used as "libraries" of technique,as some people suggest. Do they really contain grappling methods as is now being advocated in some quarters, or is this just a means of attracting interest back to what seems to be a languishing area of martial arts?Please note that I'm not asking these questions as a)a karate practtioner or b)an advocate of kata.I'm neither.I'd just like to know what your thoughts are.Particulrly as you are regarded as an authority on Sanchin.

    Answer
    Let's put it this way. On the basis of the most sophisticated interpretations, as in Indonesian silat, katas contain entry, breakdown, takedown applications and optional finishes.But, from my experience, nobody started really seriously working at grappling applications until NHB came along. Also, because there's only so many movements the body can make, you can more or less interpret a move to mean anything you want. So who knows: maybe they do contain grappling, maybe they don't. But the way people are practicing the kata, they're not resembling anything real. Unlike shadowboxing, the moves are ambiguous. There's nothing ambiguous about a left hook: it's obvious to the viewer what the guy's practicing and he doesn't need to have the secrets revealed to him in a special bunkai class.

    But I've dealt with this question in my bio, where I talk about being unable to separate the combative content from all the other stuff that ends up getting crammed into the form.

    With Sanchin, if I was to say that it had training benefits, then it could be easily interpreted as an endorsement to practice in Sanchin. But the truth is, with regards to my authority on Sanchin, that authority was all information I put INTO the form--not information I got out. And people tend to think that it was somewhere in this esoteric boxing form that the information has been gained, and it wasn't. It was just that I saw the similarity between the sanchin posture and boxing/wrestling/Muay Thai and applied the principles I knew of reflex and behavioral patterns to the Sanchin so as to enhance the neuromusculoskeletal structure. I only did that as a bait to hook martial artists into my method. That was the whole purpose of the Toudi Kempo stuff; not to endorse the forms, but to try to get their practitioners under my influence where I could teach them and change their direction. I only ever used the forms as a device, and when that didn't have the desired effect, I dropped the sanchin but I didn't lose anything by doing so because all it was was a shape to hold my ideas. That's why you'll see me wearing a gi in some of the films. It was just an attempt to connect with the traditionalists.'

    And another

    'One of the technical points that came up within the responses was the claim that there is no Valsalva maneuovre in the practice of Sanchin. Being more than familiar with the Sanchin/Samchien form as practiced by Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and several Fujian systems, and having been considered in the past to be amongst the leading authorities on the rationale of its method, everyone I've ever seen practice Sanchin, whether of the Goju ryu, Uechi ryu or the Fujian systems, all to a varying degree make an expiratory effort by an extended sound against constricted vocal cords, or with a cough against a closed glottis. Or equally to a lesser or greater degree, go through a form of dynamic tension at various technical points within the Three-Battle Three Upright or Chien tension form.
    Cardiac output is dependent upon the amount of blood returned to the right heart, and several mechanisms assist in this return. Namely, the muscle pump, by which through rhythmatic contractions veins are compressed and blood is forced towards the heart—sustained muscular contraction, however, hinders the return of venous blood; venoconstriction by which blood is returned to the heart by reflex venoconstriction through the intiation and control of the central nervous system; and the respiratory pump, by which the veins of the thorax and abdomen are emptied during inspiration and refilled during expiration. In that during diaphragmic breathing, intrathoracic pressure becomes subatmospheric, in that decreasing intrathoracic pressure during inspiration allows blood in thoracic veins to aspirate towards the heart, and through increased abdominal pressure through diaphragmic breathing during inspiration, veins in the abdominal cavity are emptied. The reverse taking place upon expiration; i.e., the veins of the thoracic and abdominal cavities again fill with venous blood.
    During valsalva, as air cannot escape, or is restricted, intrathoracic pressure can rise to a point where systolic and diastolic pressure can rise beyond normal levels anticipated in exercises that do not advocate the holding or restraining of the breath. It is possible for intrathoracic pressure to rise to such a level that causes the vena cava returning blood to the heart to collapse—hardly, as I have already pointed out in other articles, the kind of exercise to be engaging in if you are overweight.
    Many of you might very well doubt the validity of whether there is a valsalva maneuovre in the Sanchin form, but whether you perceive that you are practicing it in the form or not rather depends on your definition of valsalva. It never hurts to be cautious, particularly if you are obese or resemble like so many within the world today, swinus erectus, that new species of piglike man, or upright pig. It would also be wise rather than relying on what your master, teacher, instructor, physician or neurologist has advised, to re-evaluate their definition and yours of valsalva by checking out some of the following references, written by those far more knowledgeable in their field than I. '
    Last edited by Nick Forrer; 07-04-2005 at 04:58 PM.
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