Question to Sifu Ross regarding theory on Tekki-kata

[Gringorn]

Hi.

This is my first post on this forum, so please be gentle with me.

I've been reading up on the Chan Tai San-thread. Amazing stories by the way, and probably the best and most entertaining thread I've read on any MA-forum ever. A great read.

On "page" 20 you said something that chaught my interest, however, but was never adressed again. Since this is off-topic in regards to the Chan Tai San-stories, I thought I'd post this here instead.

Page 20:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&page=20&pp=15

Quote:

"Chris, since we are discussing two man sets, want to share with them your Tekki Kata theory???"

Please, could you elaborate on this? I've been hoping this would be adressed, but it was never mentioned again.

(By the way, I'm a former shotokan practitioner turned CMA-addict, though no more than a fresh newbie)

[lkfmdc]

in other words........

DECONSTRUCTION IT

[rogue]

Gringorn

Naihanchi being half of a two man set has been put forth by Patrick McCarthy. His interpretation is very interesting as it's based upon believable reactions of the missing man. If you can attend one of his seminars do so.

[WanderingMonk]

well, as luck would have it, he will be in New York, on Long Island in a week and a half doing a seminar - serendipity?

or is it .....
FATE

[rogue]

Chris you can try but your best bet is to go to the seminar since he covers alot of history and how he researched his work. I think if you introduce yourself and tell him who your sifu was it might perk up his ears. I don't know him well but I did get to socialize with him a little after the seminars and he was a blast.

[Gringorn]

Thanks for the great replies.
If I wasn't curious before, I am now.

I have done CMA for less than a year (ouch), but already it has put my former shotokan-training in a wholly different perspective.

Unfortunately, sine I live in Norway, I won't have a chance to check out any of Mr. McCarthy's seminars. But thanks for the link, and thanks for the replies. Interesting stuff.

['MegaPoint]

just to give you some idea though, the "theory" (which is mine, it is my theory - A. Elk...) involves the origin of the forms, not in terms of who or where, but the what and how - in other words, what is the real deal with the forms, the "inner" workings? in terms of fighting (theory and practical application), healing and internal practice / self-cultivation? what's in a name? and what's missing? in order to come up with the answers to these questions, I have drawn on my experience in / knowledge of Shotokan / TKD (Mo Duk Kwan specifically), Okinawan karate, southern Chinese short hand systems, tai chi, Taoist internal practice and TCM; anyway, based on what's already been posted you should be able to figure it out yourself with a little leg work...

Don't you mean Naihanchi? If you only know the diluted Tekki version then you will get very little from its practice.

If you guys need any info on Okinawan kata just ask the Okinawan yudansha, like me. Conjecture means diddly.

Of course there is a strong connection between the Ryukyu Islands and China. They were a tributary of China for centuries, even during the Satsuma occupation. Thirty-six Chinese families set up a village in Kume prefecture on Okinawa for cultural and economic exchange.

My styles founder (and arguably the founder of most modern karate styles) was Matsumura Sokon (Bu Be Tatsu or Wu Cheng Cheng-Da) the chief palace guard for three Okinawan kings. He was sent to the location of the original Fukien Shaolin Temple by King Sho Tai and learned for many years, returning with added MAs knowledge. Hohan Soken said that he may have studied for over 2 decades. He returned to Fuzhou some years after his initial trip to further his studies with Iwah Sifu and Wai shin Zan Sifu. From this comes the MMA known as Shuri Te (later Matsumura Seito Shorin), an amalgam of Shaolin Chuan'Fa, Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (Satsuma Clan's fighting system), and Okinawan Ti.

The name of our highest level kata is "Hakutsuru" which means "White Crane".

I could give you all the proof you need but it's a holiday I have to go celebrate.

[Nick Forrer]

I think this guy (Steve Morris) has some interesting things to say about the connection between chinese kung fu and okinawan karate. See what you think:

Biography - scroll down

Some quotes about sanchin

Question
'I'd like to know if you think that kata serve any useful purpose at all when it comes to preparing for a streetfight type of situation.Do you think that they can be used as "libraries" of technique,as some people suggest. Do they really contain grappling methods as is now being advocated in some quarters, or is this just a means of attracting interest back to what seems to be a languishing area of martial arts?Please note that I'm not asking these questions as a)a karate practtioner or b)an advocate of kata.I'm neither.I'd just like to know what your thoughts are.Particulrly as you are regarded as an authority on Sanchin.

Answer
Let's put it this way. On the basis of the most sophisticated interpretations, as in Indonesian silat, katas contain entry, breakdown, takedown applications and optional finishes.But, from my experience, nobody started really seriously working at grappling applications until NHB came along. Also, because there's only so many movements the body can make, you can more or less interpret a move to mean anything you want. So who knows: maybe they do contain grappling, maybe they don't. But the way people are practicing the kata, they're not resembling anything real. Unlike shadowboxing, the moves are ambiguous. There's nothing ambiguous about a left hook: it's obvious to the viewer what the guy's practicing and he doesn't need to have the secrets revealed to him in a special bunkai class.

But I've dealt with this question in my bio, where I talk about being unable to separate the combative content from all the other stuff that ends up getting crammed into the form.

With Sanchin, if I was to say that it had training benefits, then it could be easily interpreted as an endorsement to practice in Sanchin. But the truth is, with regards to my authority on Sanchin, that authority was all information I put INTO the form--not information I got out. And people tend to think that it was somewhere in this esoteric boxing form that the information has been gained, and it wasn't. It was just that I saw the similarity between the sanchin posture and boxing/wrestling/Muay Thai and applied the principles I knew of reflex and behavioral patterns to the Sanchin so as to enhance the neuromusculoskeletal structure. I only did that as a bait to hook martial artists into my method. That was the whole purpose of the Toudi Kempo stuff; not to endorse the forms, but to try to get their practitioners under my influence where I could teach them and change their direction. I only ever used the forms as a device, and when that didn't have the desired effect, I dropped the sanchin but I didn't lose anything by doing so because all it was was a shape to hold my ideas. That's why you'll see me wearing a gi in some of the films. It was just an attempt to connect with the traditionalists.'

And another

'One of the technical points that came up within the responses was the claim that there is no Valsalva maneuovre in the practice of Sanchin. Being more than familiar with the Sanchin/Samchien form as practiced by Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and several Fujian systems, and having been considered in the past to be amongst the leading authorities on the rationale of its method, everyone I've ever seen practice Sanchin, whether of the Goju ryu, Uechi ryu or the Fujian systems, all to a varying degree make an expiratory effort by an extended sound against constricted vocal cords, or with a cough against a closed glottis. Or equally to a lesser or greater degree, go through a form of dynamic tension at various technical points within the Three-Battle Three Upright or Chien tension form.
Cardiac output is dependent upon the amount of blood returned to the right heart, and several mechanisms assist in this return. Namely, the muscle pump, by which through rhythmatic contractions veins are compressed and blood is forced towards the heart—sustained muscular contraction, however, hinders the return of venous blood; venoconstriction by which blood is returned to the heart by reflex venoconstriction through the intiation and control of the central nervous system; and the respiratory pump, by which the veins of the thorax and abdomen are emptied during inspiration and refilled during expiration. In that during diaphragmic breathing, intrathoracic pressure becomes subatmospheric, in that decreasing intrathoracic pressure during inspiration allows blood in thoracic veins to aspirate towards the heart, and through increased abdominal pressure through diaphragmic breathing during inspiration, veins in the abdominal cavity are emptied. The reverse taking place upon expiration; i.e., the veins of the thoracic and abdominal cavities again fill with venous blood.
During valsalva, as air cannot escape, or is restricted, intrathoracic pressure can rise to a point where systolic and diastolic pressure can rise beyond normal levels anticipated in exercises that do not advocate the holding or restraining of the breath. It is possible for intrathoracic pressure to rise to such a level that causes the vena cava returning blood to the heart to collapse—hardly, as I have already pointed out in other articles, the kind of exercise to be engaging in if you are overweight.
Many of you might very well doubt the validity of whether there is a valsalva maneuovre in the Sanchin form, but whether you perceive that you are practicing it in the form or not rather depends on your definition of valsalva. It never hurts to be cautious, particularly if you are obese or resemble like so many within the world today, swinus erectus, that new species of piglike man, or upright pig. It would also be wise rather than relying on what your master, teacher, instructor, physician or neurologist has advised, to re-evaluate their definition and yours of valsalva by checking out some of the following references, written by those far more knowledgeable in their field than I. '