Wing Chun Fighters? Where ya at

[lawrenceofidaho]

I agree...Lawerence is mistaken if he thinks ALL Wing Chun Masters and Sifu's are training like it was in the 60's, lol. But writing on this forum does nothing to prove otherwise so why waste the time...

James

What are some of the major improvements and refinements made to WC training methodologies made since GM Yip Man taught guys like Wong, Cheung, and Lee?

I am not trying to be cynical. I am asking sincerely. (I just don't think there is anywhere near the kind of innovation that is going on in MMA.)

I am originally from a WT background and thus having a bit more exposure to that lineage than to others, I'll offer a couple of possible examples....... Sifu Emin's anti-grappling program might fall into that category, and possibly Sifu K's "Blitzdefense" (although to me it seems to mostly be a repackaging of Geoff Thompson stuff using WT terminology, it is still an attempt at updating and making the art more practical.)

What might be some other examples?

A catch-22 here is that to some traditionalists, any improvements or changes designed to increase the level of performance are often viewed as "style-mixing" or "watering down", and that if one really knew the true secrets of wing chun , none of that "other stuff" would be necessary. -That is what I feel is most unfortunate........

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Well the most obvious thing is that plenty more cross training in other styles is done by WC guys now then ever previously happened in the "60's".

There are WC people who do the style mixing you're talking about. Incorporating styles that "60's" guys never had a lot of access to like MT, BJJ, wrestling, escrima, etc. A lot of equipment from other styles are happily incorporated by WC guys like pads, focus mits, punching bags, kali sticks, headgear, mats and various gloves.

People are competing in all sorts of events. Despite some claims on this thread that it never happens.

As they do these sorts of things, they are going to evolve their training methodologies as a matter of course. It doesn't have to be some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale to be a methodology.

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines, sports conditioning etc. These are evolutions of another kind.

It seems to me you advocate progressiveness but then don't want to acknowledge anyone's efforts.

[lawrenceofidaho]

It doesn't have to be some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale to be a methodology.

Apparently, WT can't help but package things that way........

[lawrenceofidaho]

Well the most obvious thing is that plenty more cross training in other styles is done by WC guys now then ever previously happened in the "60's".

There are WC people who do the style mixing you're talking about. Incorporating styles that "60's" guys never had a lot of access to like MT, BJJ, wrestling, escrima, etc.

I am a style mixer myself, and I feel this is the best way to go for someone who seeks to develop well-rounded fighting skill.

While training in BJJ, etc. might help an individual fighter evolve and refine his or her own personal style, it doesn't necessarly do anything to help further the art WC as a whole.

A lot of equipment from other styles are happily incorporated by WC guys like pads, focus mits, punching bags, kali sticks, headgear, mats and various gloves.

BJJ has doubled it's depth and scope in the past decade; branching successfully into no-gi grappling, vale tudo, self defense specialization, etc. There are new positions (x-guard, rubberguard, etc.) and submissions (Eddie Bravo seems to be the most prolific) being created (and used succesfully in competitions) on a regular basis.

Greco Wrestling has effectively adapted it's uses of; the clinch, underhooks, and takedowns to be very effective in self defense and MMA.

Muay Thai has been modified and used with great success in both MMA and more limited striking competitions such as K-1.

MMA specialists at the Straight Blast Gym are integrating key concepts such as "aliveness" and "progressive resistance" into their training.

Yet if Wing Chun's only boast of evolution is "We use more modern padded equipment now." -then that is a tragedy

People are competing in all sorts of events. Despite some claims on this thread that it never happens.

The few who are competing are the ones who need to be guiding Wing Chun's next generation. Not the traditional "establishment" guys who only care about building some petty Wing Chun mini-empire.

As they do these sorts of things, they are going to evolve their training methodologies as a matter of course.

I believe the future of WC is in the hands of the cross-trainers, and the old; "WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years.

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines

Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that.

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like.......sports conditioning etc. These are evolutions of another kind.

This is one area that has shown itself to consistantly increase performance, yet the wing chun people exploring this are still a minority.

It seems to me you advocate progressiveness but then don't want to acknowledge anyone's efforts.

I am happy to acknowledge the efforts of those who are trying to intelligently evolve wing chun into an effective fighting art for the 21st century. I just think that they are (sadly) only a handful, and that there is way too much resistance from their wing chun "peers" to almost everything they try to do.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Yet if Wing Chun's only boast of evolution is "We use more modern padded equipment now." -then that is a tragedy

Talk about tearing a sentence out of it's context! I never EVER said it was the only "boast of evolution". I gave a number of progressive ideas and you quote ONE and say that it's the only new idea. The only tragedy is your argument.

WC People use the newer equipment to implement the new ideas.
Mats for grappling. Sticks for weapons training. Bags for striking.

Nothing's holding anyone back. People have been doing all that you advocate already. And they are going to continue to while you ignore them.

Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that.

What you've seen doesn't seem to be much at all.

Personally I have done weight training for years and I KNOW plenty on this forum who do all sorts of sports conditioning. I competed in gymnastics as a teenager and hence know something about acrobatics. I have also done yoga for quite a few years and I know others have on this forum. I have learnt qigongs from various qigong guys and I know others here have as well. Traditional Chinese medicines and Western medicine are certainly discussed here in passing.

I think all these topics have been discussed lots of times here and they will continue to be. A lot of people here have been exploring so much into all sorts of areas and you don't know about it until you bring it up.

You'd be suprised how diverse a knowledge base WC people as a collective have.

I am happy to acknowledge the efforts of those who are trying to intelligently evolve wing chun into an effective fighting art for the 21st century. I just think that they are (sadly) only a handful, and that there is way too much resistance from their wing chun "peers" to almost everything they try to do.

Like I said, not everyone is going to be interested in everything new you do.
Some things will click for some and not others. It's not a conspiracy to resist change.

I've learnt some wushu from the ex head coach of the Beijing Wushu Team but would anyone here care? No.

Similarly I trained Muay Thai for a little while with Paul Briggs who lost the WBC light heavyweight boxing title fight against Adamek on the Brewster-Golata card.
Would anyone care about that? Not many.

[anerlich]

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines

Well, that's true ... but I think it's interesting that this sort of thing seems to be more accepted than style mixing, though arguably it's the same sort of thing.

Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that.

I think that's true, too ... despite the insistence of some, I've seen little evidence that WC has anything of its own in the way of health cultivation. Most WC substyles that teach this in my experience teach basic derivative exercises from other styles of KF, thus making the "purist" tag pretty inappropriate.

And, to illustrate Lawrence's point, a couple of stories:

My first instructor learned TWC from William Cheung in the 1960's, after gaining Dan ranks in Goju Ryu Karate (nidan) and JJJ. He also trained in CLF and Northern Sil Lum, and now teaches an eclectic style.

He showed a fairly basic Sil Lum qigong form, which I also learned, free of charge, to a fairly high profile WC exponent here, who offers a wide variety of programs, vids, etc. Within a few months, said WC guy is advertising "Executive Health Programs" based around this qigong form, at exporbitant rates Like AUD $1200 per course.

One of his students also trained at a WC school in another city. My first instuctor has a JJJ black belt, and the Sil Lum system he trained in includes a sophisticated integrated grappling system itself (standup grappling, not much groundwork). His student showed the WC instructor a couple of grappling related moves - the WC instructor tried to get him to change schools, become an instructor under him, etc. Lo and behold, a few months later the WC instructor appears in an article in an Aussie MA rag here, titled "Wing Chun Grappling" - showing the exact same moves the student demonstrated to him, and nothing else of substance.

It is this sort of shenanigans that gives WC, and KF in general, a bad name. and my instructor's a Gwailo and both the other guys were HK Chinese! So much for the ultra-importance of lineage.

I agree with Lawrence about BJJ and innovation. Every couple of months someone seems to invent a new type of guard, sweep, setup, etc. One of my favorite DVD's is by a couple of brown belts just showing off stuff they came up with mucking around, and with their kids' classes. Just to watch the fruits of creativity and open-mindedness is inspirational. Some think "straying from the path" leads to watering down of the art, but the BJJ experience demonstrates the exact opposite. Strength comes from innovation at least as much as transmission. BJJ claims mixing and modification as string points, not dilution.

Too much TMA IMO sticks with the "transmission" model, where inviolate secrets are passed down a discrete lineage, and transgressors are shunned as heritics who have crossed to the Dark Side of Qi.

You are responsible for your own development. Why live your life according to someone else's script? Think for yourself. Create.

BTW, Lawrence, thanks for all those links, etc. you sent me. Excellent stuff.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Talk about tearing a sentence out of it's context! I never EVER said it was the only "boast of evolution". I gave a number of progressive ideas and you quote ONE and say that it's the only new idea. The only tragedy is your argument.

Sorry if it seemed that I was summing up your entire post as such. -I feel you made many good points, but unfortunately what you refer to as good examples of wing chun progressiveness seem to only be present in a small segment of the wing chun community.

Personally I have done weight training for years and I KNOW plenty on this forum who do all sorts of sports conditioning. I competed in gymnastics as a teenager and hence know something about acrobatics. I have also done yoga for quite a few years and I know others have on this forum. I have learnt qigongs from various qigong guys and I know others here have as well. Traditional Chinese medicines and Western medicine are certainly discussed here in passing..

I would not argue that there is a high level of interest around those things in the WC community, but how much do they really help improve anyone's wing chun fighting ability? (sports conditioning excluded) -I don't mean to say that they are not interesting endeavors, but I feel they have little to contribute to an individual's performance when it comes to sparring / fighting / combat application. In my opinion, they are often a distraction from spending time engaging in more fruitful activity (assuming one's goal is to develop some realistic fighting skill.)

Like I said, not everyone is going to be interested in everything new you do.

Of course not, but for those who are interested in performance as a martial artist, they will usually listen to an person who is sharing something that has helped contributed to their success in an arena of tough competition.

I've learnt some wushu from the ex head coach of the Beijing Wushu Team but would anyone here care? No.

Maybe not from the point of view of a fighter, but Wushu is a beautiful discipline, and I admire the dedication and conditioning it requires to do it well.

Similarly I trained Muay Thai for a little while with Paul Briggs who lost the WBC light heavyweight boxing title fight against Adamek on the Brewster-Golata card. Would anyone care about that? Not many.

I do. -I'm sorry I missed the Brewster-Golota card. -I haven't seen Paul fight before, but I respect someone who has the drive and ability to get to that level in combat sports. That's cool to have had an opportunity to train with a high level fighter for a while.

Edmund, I feel that you and I agree on probably a lot more than you think, but I believe that acting as an apologist for wing chun and saying that it's evolving just fine is doing it a disservice. I think it needs to be criticized and challenged in order to grow as a fighting art.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

I would not argue that there is a high level of interest around those things in the WC community, but how much do they really help improve anyone's wing chun fighting ability? (sports conditioning excluded) -I don't mean to say that they are not interesting endeavors, but I feel they have little to contribute to an individual's performance when it comes to sparring / fighting / combat application. In my opinion, they are often a distraction from spending time engaging in more fruitful activity (assuming one's goal is to develop some realistic fighting skill.)

Well believe it or not, wrestlers from former Soviet block countries warm up with gymnastics tumbling routines. This gives them a lot of nimbleness, coordination and balance. I hear Rickson Gracie does a lot of yoga for breathing, strength and flexibility conditioning. As do other BJJ guys. So what's a distraction to you is not to others in the realistic fighting community.

Edmund, I feel that you and I agree on probably a lot more than you think, but I believe that acting as an apologist for wing chun and saying that it's evolving just fine is doing it a disservice. I think it needs to be criticized and challenged in order to grow as a fighting art.

Oh I'm a big criticizer myself. But I think I've moved beyond what you're saying. There's interest in fighting in WC already. A troll like Silent Warrior isn't going to generate more.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Well believe it or not, wrestlers from former Soviet block countries warm up with gymnastics tumbling routines. This gives them a lot of nimbleness, coordination and balance. .

In their case, it is an intelligent choice for a conditioning activity, as it helps increase explosive power as well as controlled strength. -Yet, put a tumbling and gymnastics program in a traditional martial arts school (where there is no realistic sparring), and everyone there begins speculating on how they are going to use these "cool new moves" when they kick the a$$es of multiple armed attackers out on the street.

I hear Rickson Gracie does a lot of yoga for breathing, strength and flexibility conditioning. As do other BJJ guys. So what's a distraction to you is not to others in the realistic fighting community.

I trust that someone with the experience and "results-oriented" mentality of a Rickson, or a world-class Soviet wrestler is going to make reasonably intelligent choices about what to include in their own training programs, -but what is suspect about the average John or Jane Doe who trains at the McKwoon down the street taking up yoga is that it is often chosen, not because they have weighed the tangible benefits of it against other conditioning activities they might undertake, but because it is; eastern, exotic, and has an aura of mystical asian glamour about it. The McKwoons take advantage of this kind of naievity and cash in on it, so it is not in their interest to rebut this sort of ridiculous behavior and educate people. -As a result, there is another generation of rather inept martial artists being created that are likely going to be in for a rude shock should they ever have to actually use their "skills" to fight.

Oh I'm a big criticizer myself. But I think I've moved beyond what you're saying.

I don't doubt that you have, but there are a number of people who will still benefit greatly from having the brainwashing and propaganda they've been fed being openly challenged until they can see it for what it is.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

To The Top
(For the newbies who can't browse the forum properly)

[Jason Martell]

Ultimate Fighting is way different from acting in self defense. In self defense if you grab someone's arm you might break it, but in UF you use it to take them to the ground and it becomes a ground fight. You can take out knees. In UF your goal is to hold them on the ground for five minutes or try to knock them unconcious, while in self defense your goal is to stop your attacker from continuing to attack you as fast as possible, by disabling him. knocking them unconcious is not the only possible way to win a fight.

[Fajing]

Ultimate Fighting is way different from acting in self defense. In self defense if you grab someone's arm you might break it, but in UF you use it to take them to the ground and it becomes a ground fight. You can take out knees. In UF your goal is to hold them on the ground for five minutes or try to knock them unconcious, while in self defense your goal is to stop your attacker from continuing to attack you as fast as possible, by disabling him. knocking them unconcious is not the only possible way to win a fight.

Very true Jason! I agree. In real life it's about surviving and is definitely no holds barred. ANYTHING GOES!!

[Jason Martell]

yeah an eye gouge will stop your attacker, while they could just plow right through a punch to the eye and hit you anyways. In a fight, it can come down to who lands the first devestating strike, while in Ultimate Fighting you get several second chances, to take control and win. If you get their arm in a hold you can break it on the street. but in UF it goes to the ground, and then it all comes down to who's the better ground fighter, when the other guy could have just won by snapping your arm. I'm not dissing UF, those are brave honorable fighters who love to compete, and they train real hard, and I don't doubt that those guys could kill me in a street fight. but it's different then real fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe the future of WC is in the hands of the cross-trainers, and the old; "WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years." (lawrenceofidaho)


***AGREED.

[WingChunTao]

The Dream Police called and are looking for their dream back!!!