A discussion of Tai Chi

[SPJ]

This is a very good thread.



Good thread

comments?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Having just been at Nick Scrima's Tournament in Orlando over the July 4th weekend, a number of questions have become apparent.. What is the state of Taiji as a martial art? Why are so many rules imposed on the pushing hands competitions? Is it possible to hold competitions where Qinna can be expressed but not fully executed? Are there enough qualified judges to let Taiji emerge as the combat art it is?

The Taiwan team's advanced mens competitor, Tun Ze Tun, withdrew from one of the most dynamic and expressive matches i've seen because of the judges application of warnings leading toward a disqualification.. rather than be disqualified, the Taiwan coach pulled Tun from the match.. Now, here's the thing, these guys are the best of the best and were doing what they do.. we were witness to some outstanding Taiji combat and the competitors were eager to play at that level of intensity by returning to the starting position after each point.. although the "rules" may have suffered a bit as the intensity grew, the competitors were only interested in the play.. the judges continued to restrict and misapply the rules, breaking the flow and dynamics of world-class pushing.. i understand the need for rules, but when the competitors agree to move into the realm of real Taiji for the benefit testing their Taiji rather than who is better at "rule" interpretation, it was disappointing to have the judges intervene.. My perspective of this event will likely be challenged on different levels, but you had to be there to see the potential..

Ther was quite an emotional response to this situation by many of the world class players in attendence.. a common cause resonated.. let's have a tournament where we CAN put it all out there.. the competitors agree to the rules, Qinna is expressable but not fully executed, impact (without fajing) is permitted to the torso and limbs, leg boxing is permitted with "pushing" kicks (not striking kicks).. and, qualified judges keep it real and as safe as possible.. injury is NOT the objective, but clear MA is...

Taiji IS a martial art.. but, the current rule set for competition reduces it to a "patty-cakes" exhibition that leaves the rest of the martial arts world with the impression it is best suited for "pushing" shopping carts.. It is time for Taiji to stop being the MA whipping boys (and girls, there were many gifted female competitors at the tourney)..

Be well..

[kungfu cowboy]

Why not have fajing and real kicks? Just wear some protection. Or better yet, have different classes in regard to level of contact. Simple.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(we were witness to some outstanding Taiji combat)


Since when is pushing hands fighting?

If people want to compete in sparring matches or whatever one calls it, why equate pushing hands practice with that? Why not just directly compete in those venues provided ones skill level is up to the point where one really has taiji skill sets. why pretend

Almost all people that I have pushed with, here and some in Taiwan who enter into or view push hands in this manor tend to use a lot of force and movement over real inner skill. The higher the skill level the less to no rules needed because its not really possible to do a lot of things that the rules prevent one from doing.

[Shooter]

There are some pushing hands formats that are well suited for submission wrestling competitions.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To wear gloves and protective gear restricts hand movement and the ability to execute Qinna by hand grasps.. so, to keep it close to real, eliminate protective gear but maintain a level of control that reduces the risk of severe injury..

Here's the thing, good pushers should be able to deal with what is presented.. but, the rules severely limit presentation of honest combat arts.. i would hope we could raise Taiji to a reasonable combat level within its own venue, of course anyone is welcome to play san shou.. what i am hoping for, is that we offer a similar situation within a purely Taiji format.. where the subtle nuances of Taiji can be explored in a more combat-like environment..

Almost all people that I have pushed with, here and some in Taiwan who enter into or view push hands in this manor tend to use a lot of force and movement over real inner skill. The higher the skill level the less to no rules needed because its not really possible to do a lot of things that the rules prevent one from doing.

That's just it, there IS a lot of force, that is the nature of combat.. and, until we open up the competition to using most of our Taiji skills, we won't know what really works.. we tend to hide behind rules because those subtle "internal" skills haven't been evolved in the competition world to a level capable of dealing with "force".. if you have competed at the level where you see Waitzkin, Tun, Caulfield, Childress, etc.. you will know that there is still enormous internal skill at play.. Taiji as a combat art will likely have your oponent on the mat, why not let there be throws allowed in competition?

Be well...

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think your confused as to what is combat and what is competition.
Here are many capable people who do not compete in taiji.

(That's just it, there IS a lot of force, that is the nature of combat.. and, until we open up the competition to using most of our Taiji skills, we won't know what really works.. we tend to hide behind rules because those subtle "internal" skills haven't been evolved in the competition world to a level capable of dealing with "force".)

I don’t understand this statement, my thoughts are that if you can really understand and use the others force the amount of force doesn’t matter its still force. Pushing is kind of a gentleman’s way of testing skills, or developing skills not an indicator of ones fighting ability. Having true skill sets one can use them as needed not having true skill sets adding force, speed and movement to the mix will not help to develop them nor indicate usage of them.

http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/story.html

an interesting story reflecting testing of skill

[TaiChiBob]

my thoughts are that if you can really understand and use the others force the amount of force doesn’t matter its still force. Pushing is kind of a gentleman’s way of testing skills, or developing skills not an indicator of ones fighting ability. Having true skill sets one can use them as needed not having true skill sets adding force, speed and movement to the mix will not help to develop them nor indicate usage of them.

Again, that is the point.. to actually use these skills, regardless of the oponent's level of force.. allow force to be expressed and see how well the skills deal with it.. although i understand and largely agree with your assessment, i am also troubled by the implication that the "gentleman’s way" is just an excuse to avoid the real test of skill.. i do not confuse training with combat, but i fear we are losing some of the combat skills in favor of the "gentleman’s way".. i have witnessed and been party to many pushes that would appear to be external, but when engaged you still use all the skills.. speed is reoccurring topic in the classics, so is power.. both are necessary, it is the wise use of them that distinguishes Taiji..

Be well

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, push hands as a practice is a very useful tool in polishing one's skills. However, as a competition, it developes very bad habits for real combat situations.

1. the desire to win the competition clouds one's mind; in a real fight there are often multiple attackers, just concentrating in beating one will get you nowhere. And running away is sometimes the best solution and should be considered.

2. there is no training of all the events that happens "pre-fight". There are lots of things going on before a real fight that severely alter the outcome of the fight.

3. rules in a competition, no rules on the street.

4. the constant rooting is only good in competitions, but in real fights one really needs to know how to move around the enemies. If your feet are stuck, basically you are dead.

5. Weapons; the habit of letting someone's hand coming in so close to the body is dangerous. Most attackers will be carrying knives, beer bottles etc.

Hence we often see experienced Tai Chi practitioners either turning into floppy noodles, or so physical that it looks more like Sumo. Neither is beneficial. I believe there is so much more to being a good fighter than winning a competition in a rink, even if you allow very relaxed rules. It is just one aspect of fighting.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Fixed and restricted step push-hands competitions are steps on the way to moving step push-hands.. moving step is dynamic and quite useful in developing fighting skills.. now, to enhance that notion, i still suggest that the rules be further relaxed to account for throws and safe expressions of Qinna.. Of course push-hands useful for polishing one's skills, but then what? How does one apply those skills? We need a venue where Taiji fighting skills can be tested against other players of the same mind-set.. i do not suggest that we change the existing rules, only add an event that permits agreeable competitors to take it up another level.. Some of us have trained for many years utilizing many more techniques than are permitted in current competitions, we can speculate as to the usefulness of these tools but until we open Taiji competition up to a higher level of skill testing we just don't know..

Too often i hear the grumblings of people that only watch push-hands competitions and complain of "too much force" or "no internal skills".. well, until you have been there and realize that all the skills are present and the force represents the likely levels you would see in the street, you just can't appreciate the value of this level of training or competing.. Moving-step push-hands requires mobile and adaptive rooting skills, it requires listening and sticking skills complicated by the movement.. and, if it seems that there are no Taiji skills being used, perhaps it is because we fail to train our students at this level.. imagine how profound it would be to see refined skills used at combat levels, but we won't unless we set the stage for it.. If you haven't visited an Aikido school, i recommend it, they take each application to its conclusion, immobilization of the opponent.. I watched in awe as Josh Waitzkin and Chris Heintzman worked through Taiji applications in ground fighting at Nick's tournament, and they pointed out the skills and techniques as they worked through attacks and escapes.. is it wise to confine Taiji applications to the "gentleman’s way"? will true Taiji fighting skills survive if they are held to "polite" rules?.. Again, i suggest that we bring Taiji to a level of combat effectiveness in training and in Taiji competitions.. then, maybe, we can take it to the MMA and regain some of the respect we have lost in the martial arts world.. I do not suggest that we abandon any of the existing Taiji wisdoms, only that we open it up to its natural potential..

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

(we can speculate as to the usefulness of these tools but until we open Taiji competition up to a higher level of skill testing we just don't know..)

I know, there is no speculation in this. I said gentleman, meaning that the intent would be not to hurt the other. At first touch people should know the level of the person they are dealing with.

Its quite easy to injure or break something in push hands, more so if the person has any inner skill at all, but this is really not the point, at least in my own work.

(some of the respect we have lost in the martial arts world0

I politly suggest that the only real respect that matters is among other taiji people or masters. Any one practicing taiji should know what their level, limits and ablilities are in their art. If one is looking for respect from others it would seem that their focus is on the outer not really on the inner nature of the art.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I politly suggest that the only real respect that matters is among other taiji people or masters. Any one practicing taiji should know what their level, limits and ablilities are in their art. If one is looking for respect from others it would seem that their focus is on the outer not really on the inner nature of the art.

Even the respect of others within the cloistered halls of Taiji would be an external expression.. the respect i refer to is the situation where other Taiji people, other MA players, and the general public fail to see the unique nature of push-hands.. even the highly evolved intensity of the Taiwan version is called "sumo" by some in Taiji circles, even some that have credentials.. while i know it to be every bit as skill laden/demanding as the "soft stuff".. sensitivity at combat speed and power levels is a very demanding skill.. perhaps there are simply too few people capable of doing it, much less teaching it..

Their criticism is justified when Taiji players turn up their noses and comment that "Taiji is too deadly", "Taiji has nothing to prove", "only real Taiji players can understand the art", etc.. If there exists misunderstandings and misconceptions of Taiji shouldn't we take the responsibility to demonstrate Taiji's full potential.. We like to call it a Martial Art, but offer little in the way of examples.. the "gentlemen's way" is routinely criticized as a flimsy excuse for a "Martial Art", however.. i have seen it used effectively against sound external players.. but, when asked to bring it to the public no one will oblige.. are we so elitist that we try to keep secrets? I greatly admire Chris H. and his claims of internal arts as contributing to his success in the cage.. Our Art will suffer until we can soundly demonstrate its effectiveness.. and, that wont happen if we don't train it to its full potential..

Be well..

[GLW]

Why concern yourself with what Tuishou competition should or should not be?

The fact is that there are Sanshou and Sanda events that can be used.

Who cares if there are other styles there. If you can use Taijiquan effectively, then it would not matter.

This is the same argument that gets used when the judges apply the rules about too much power or striking illegal areas in light contact sparring. Having had that argument used on me as a judge many times...I will give you my stock answer:

Don't like the rules and restrictions on the event...get enough people to agree with you, develop an alternative, and change the rules.

Think that your fighting abilities were not given their due because of disqualification for power or other rule infractions...Go do Sanshou or other full contact events.

I hear what you are saying...but the history is there.

Originally, when we tried to put in moving push hands competitions, tons of people were weirded out about it because all most schools did was fixed step. Even restricted step was a big leap forward for them.

The quality of the push hands seen is dependent on two things...First and obviously the quality of the competitors. Second, the quality of the judges and in particular the center judge.

Now, if the rules are written down then the judge can't change them. If all competitors in an event want to change the rules, then the judge can't change them...but the promoter CAN. But, if you change them on the fly, you WILL have untrained judges - since there is no way they can know the rules.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

What i am suggesting is that i believe we are clever enough to craft a set of rules for expressing more of Taiji's skills.. Sanda, San Shou, etc. use gloves that compromise hand work, as in finger, hand and wrist Qinna.. TuiShou competition is great, i simply suggest that we develop another event within that framework for a higher level of Taiji combat skills.. it would be by agreement among the competitors if they choose that venue.. still expecting the event to have a depth of mutual respect between competitors.. i may be in the minority, here, but.. whenever someone locks me up with good Qinna i appreciate the art and yield the point, a lesson learned.. struggling to save a point is how injuries occur..

Perhaps i am just spitting into the wind.. it seems that most people are content with the current state of Taiji competitions.. We don't usually go to SanShou or Sanda because too few are trained that way.. if it became a Taiji event, then maybe more interest would be generated to revive its lost combat arts.. a robust Taiji pushing event might bridge the gap between competition combat dominated by external stylists and the gentle combat arts of Taiji.. or, maybe we could have a WuJi meditation competition.. which way do we go?

Be well..

[SPJ]

Tai Chi for most people is an exercise to loosen up muscles and all joints.

There are many aspects of Tai Chi fighting methods.

If you take away fist punches, foot kicks and hand Qin Na, there are still bigger Qin Na with your forearms and body. There are also throws, tripping to fall or Shuai Die.

Granted most techniques started with forearm contact and then hand grab.

With the glove on, you may still do throws by pushing and using forearm or the whole arm to Chan or silk reeling. It would look like Shuai Jiao.

Kao with chest, hip may be. Elbow Zhou or Knee Kao may be too destructive.

No Tang Do or sudden jerking either.

Everything is in evolution.

For most people, move slowly and turn.

For most, it is an exercise.

For few, it is to develop outward or Peng Jing.