Body builders and martial artists

[Cung-Fu]

X-Warrior-
As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Actually bodybuilding, which is about promoting max. size (hypertrophy) and definition of muscles, uses a sub-maximum weight and reps to exhaustion, usually performed at a moderate to slow pace. Therefore, reps can range up to 15, maybe even 18 reps, depending on the individual, which may not seem that low. But you are right in the sense that this type of training does slow your nerve muscle fiber connection.

However, the use of maximum weight and very low reps (1-5) that I THINK you are referring to, does not promote size as much as strength. This type of training lays the foundation for power oriented feats, such as martial arts, boxing, sprints, gymnastics, etc.

I am not sure what you mean by "condensing" muscles, but depeding on how light the weight is and how many reps and how you perform it, the blanket statement of just using light weight high rep does not increase exploding power. Light weight high reps, usually increase endurance.

Weight training can definately help martial arts ability, but it must be done right, it is not as simple as high reps low weights, size training slows you down...etc

I would assume that at national level competition, bodybuilder's such as fitdoc would usually accumulate enough knowledge to know the difference between training to strike a pose and training to strike someone. Hence the difference between him and your local gym jock like the one you encountered X-Warrior.

[7th gen yang]

Actually bodybuilding, which is about promoting max. size (hypertrophy) and definition of muscles, uses a sub-maximum weight and reps to exhaustion, usually performed at a moderate to slow pace. Therefore, reps can range up to 15, maybe even 18 reps, depending on the individual, which may not seem that low. But you are right in the sense that this type of training does slow your nerve muscle fiber connection.

However, the use of maximum weight and very low reps (1-5) that I THINK you are referring to, does not promote size as much as strength. This type of training lays the foundation for power oriented feats, such as martial arts, boxing, sprints, gymnastics, etc.

I am not sure what you mean by "condensing" muscles, but depeding on how light the weight is and how many reps and how you perform it, the blanket statement of just using light weight high rep does not increase exploding power. Light weight high reps, usually increase endurance.

Weight training can definately help martial arts ability, but it must be done right, it is not as simple as high reps low weights, size training slows you down...etc

I would assume that at national level competition, bodybuilder's such as fitdoc would usually accumulate enough knowledge to know the difference between training to strike a pose and training to strike someone. Hence the difference between him and your local gym jock like the one you encountered X-Warrior.

Hi all
Just adding my 2 cents
I started training with weights when I was Fifteen yrs old, My friends sister was in college studing sport science. she had a program for a paper she was doing for her final grade I was her subject. How to obtain mass and strength Using Amino acids for supplements I use to take these horse pills(amino acids that she provided. the first 3 months I lost all of my Baby fat (so to speak), and noticed some improvements in speed, and strength. In six months I was developing my chest, arms, back, legs, delts,neck, after 1 year I stopped taking the supplement so the rest of my training was natural
in three years I was 235 with 11 percent body fat. I continued on my own after her paper was done Just a note she recieved and A for the Class A+ on her paper. I also found certain methods worked on other people and some other methods didn't
The Method I used to increase strength was every six weeks I would pyaramid on a machine what ever muscle I was focusing on; how that worked was I would start the heaviest weight I could do in one repition Then I would do the next lowest weight on the stack and do 2 reps then third lowest plate I would do Three reps and so on until the I went through the stack then I would go back up the stack the same way my Strength increase to the point that I could not find a Machine that had enough weight in the stack This is only one way but I was able to increase my strength on each of my exercises by 5 to 10 pounds
I had studied martial arts And had kept on Stretching But I lost alot of speed in punches and especially inward type blocks as My tricepts and chest were so big that they would rub a rash under my arms Drove me crazy Because I didn't like to walk like body builder walks and decided to stop building muscle mass to persue my martial arts again.
At that time I started training Kenpo from a private master ( Lived with him for 3 years) I had quit doing the weights so heavily. and focused on ability What I did notice Is that my training After losing the muscle mass Is that My speed is much faster than most, I have learned to use, and Isolate my Tagonistic and Antogonist muscles with more precision (start and End of twitch)mostly because I Isolated the muscle and gave me more control later In my More advanced training and coordination my strength doesn't seem to have diminished too much. Yes body builders do lose the Speed and expect a lot of hard work to gain it back or even maintain it. This is my experience take it as you will

[Rokto_Obotar]

I am 6'3'' 200lbs I have 12% body fat and I can bench a decent amount. Im not a body builder but I paly football and we work out every day for 3-4hours. I have been doing martial arts longer than football maybe thats why but I have no trouble with it. MA takes patience and relaxation alot of people dont have it wether they are body builders or regular people. I have seen many people fail HUGE, small, fat, tall, skinny very different varietys. I think that every person can do a MA just one that fits them. A body builder would be better of in BJJ (maybe), TKD< Muai Thai, Wing Chun, ect...

[SevenStar]

It's because of how you were training. You stated that you were doing machine exercises. This tells me right off the bat that you were doing isolation exercises. Also, you don't get full use of the stabilizing muscles as you do with free weights.


I am 5'10, 230, bench close to 300 and squat over 400. I can do high kicks, spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, etc. When I was training in longfist, I was able to do a tornado kick and land on the same leg I kicked with... It's all in how you train.

[7th gen yang]

It's because of how you were training. You stated that you were doing machine exercises. This tells me right off the bat that you were doing isolation exercises. Also, you don't get full use of the stabilizing muscles as you do with free weights.


I am 5'10, 230, bench close to 300 and squat over 400. I can do high kicks, spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, etc. When I was training in longfist, I was able to do a tornado kick and land on the same leg I kicked with... It's all in how you train.

I am 6'1 240lbs. right now and Still as flexible (Full split when cold) when I was in my prime
I agree about the stabilizing with free weight
every six weeks I did the Machines the remainder of my time was free weights and or body weight exercises.

[SevenStar]

What lifts were you doing?

[7th gen yang]

What lifts were you doing?

my bench at that time was 350-375
my squat was 425-450 (Iwould hack squat 710lbs)
at that time I was obcessed with the pump I got. it was funny my friends were all lifters of their high School power lifting team I would go to their school to workout their coach always asked me every time I walked into the door "so when are you going to compete for me" I was just into working out I NEVER HAD A DAY OFF! I look back now and I probably should have, I would of done pretty good but I didn't All I know every time I lifted people gathered I was just there to work out No Ego JUST ENJOYED IT

['MegaPoint]

You're correct kung fu fighter, weight training is important in martial arts as well, I was trying to point out the different ways body builders train from martial artists.

As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Martial artists train with leight weights and more reps which doesn't increases but rather condenses muscles and creates a different, more fluid, flexible and exploding power. You are still strong but your powers are 'packed' or hidden more.

-X-

If you are weight training for size you use heavy weight with 6-10 reps max and 3-4 sets. If you are training for definition you use lighter weight and more reps (12-15), 3-5 sets. Endurance is increased either way, but real endurance comes from smart and moderate aerobic exercise.

If you were flexible to begin with, meaning if you had natural ligamentous laxity (flexible ligaments) even before lifting, you'll still be flexible after the muscle hypertophy. Trust me.

This myth about training with heavy weights and low reps that you're spouting shows your lack of real scientific knowledge. Have you seen most American football running backs and linebackers? They have very large muscles, are flexible, fast and resilient. Extra muscle is like armor too.

My youngest brother is 73" and about 165 pounds. He uses 50 lb. dumbells for his biceps curls and 185 lbs. free-weight for his flat bench sets. He is fast, flexible and just naturally strong. He doesn't even work out regularly, but he has to lift heavier weight to get any feel or result out of it. My other brother who is a spine surgeon, played starting fullback for S.W. Tex. State Univ. (now Tx. State Univ.) and at the time could run a 4.45 40 yd. sprint, flat bench 415 pounds 5 times, used 120 lb. dumbells for "light" chest flies, and 80 pound dumbells for biceps curls (sets). He is still pretty much that strong some 10+ years later. He is also a BB in Shorin Ryu with no real grappling background and once handled a BJJ purple belt who weighed about 270 (he's like 225 lbs.) with ease. He is so flexible that even without stretching for years he can still do full-chinese splits. Muscles are an advantage not a disadvantage, especially if you are already flexible, SMART and fast.

What this rant means is that there are folks out there who are just genetically superior to most. They are not the norm, but there are more than just a few. They can be of any race or ethnicity and the masses' ideas of things are usually based on themselves, not the whole. You could be one and not even know your full potential because you play into the lifting myth. If you have the propensity to get big with lifting that doesn't mean that it will hamper you in any way. It might, but it's always better to have muscle when doing physical activities, like fighting or sports, than to have none or very little. There is a reason that even baseball guys want to get big (so they sometimes juice to enhance what nature failed to give them).

The big muscles thing is a matter of physics and physiques. You can't make linear statements, blanket generalizations based on some made up stuff. I can say that a lot of powerlifters I've known suffered from muscle stiffness due to their jerky or limited range of motion training, but there are a lot of bodybuilder types who are very flexible and fast. In fact Flex Wheeler is a TKD BB, who can do the full splits, and he was Mr. Olympia caliber at one time.

Just stretch between sets instead of staring at the second hand on some clock, don't rest for more than 30 secs. between sets (60 secs. max), and keep doing your MA. Watch how much things change for the positive in every respect.

BTW most trainers ain't jack! Just look at them. You'd be better off to ask the resident gym rat about what to do to get big or strong. They are there to make you spend more money at the gym, and their techniques are not only downright silly and unscientific, but also possibly injurious or even dangerous (like balancing on a giant ball while doing chest presses or supposed plyometric jump/twist training for the non-athlete). Don't believe the hype.

Safe training to you all!

[Cung-Fu]

7th gen yang-

Iam not sure why you address your statements to me specifically, beacuse iam not disagreeing with what you say.

Bodybuilding weight training methods does slow a person down, or maybe I should say are not ideal for power oriented sports. Strength training for sports is a different animal, and information on the subject is certainly not as prolific; with bodybuilding weight training dominating most of the media. In fact some countries use to even keep these things rather secret, because these are the methods used by most competitive sports, ie track and field, gymnastics,...

The pyramid you described, a sort of inverted scheme, is more for bodybuiding (hypertrophy) than increase in strength or power. I mean look at the amount of reps you would do using that method, how many total going up and down the stack? 30, 40, 50,...? Your own results tell you, you are working on hypertrophy
( THE PUMP).

Strength of course increases, becasue with size comes extra strength, but it is not ideal for power development. In fact in hinders you, that is why strectching is so emphasized by everyone here.

And of course genetics plays a very important role, next to the amount of steriods used in competitive sports.

[7th gen yang]

7th gen yang-

Iam not sure why you address your statements to me specifically, beacuse iam not disagreeing with what you say.

Bodybuilding weight training methods does slow a person down, or maybe I should say are not ideal for power oriented sports. Strength training for sports is a different animal, and information on the subject is certainly not as prolific; with bodybuilding weight training dominating most of the media. In fact some countries use to even keep these things rather secret, because these are the methods used by most competitive sports, ie track and field, gymnastics,...

The pyramid you described, a sort of inverted scheme, is more for bodybuiding (hypertrophy) than increase in strength or power. I mean look at the amount of reps you would do using that method, how many total going up and down the stack? 30, 40, 50,...? Your own results tell you, you are working on hypertrophy
( THE PUMP).

Strength of course increases, becasue with size comes extra strength, but it is not ideal for power development. In fact in hinders you, that is why strectching is so emphasized by everyone here.

And of course genetics plays a very important role, next to the amount of steriods used in competitive sports.

cung fu

I was not specifically picking on you or anyone I am still trying to understand how to use this forum I am Just a little computer Illiterate Forgive me I was just adding to this forum "my 2 cents or 1 cent" whatever Cents you get out of It. Everyone is different some people will take offense to what I say, Some might learn something new and interesting I try to learn something new every day! I try to share my views, my experience, my love to teach, and share things that have helped me from people I learned from, and shared with me whether it was wrong or right. I still learn from people. And because some people in this world only think about themselves as for me sharing is what life is about sorry if you took it wrong no pun intended LIFE IS TOO SHORT enjoy what you have for tommorrow might not be here! JUST ENJOYING MY LIFE!

[Cung-Fu]

7th gen yang-

I think we have a miscommunication here. I didn't take ANY offense to what you said before or now. You weren't being hostile nor do I think I was.

You quoted my previous post, so naturally I thought you were addressing me specifically about something. Nothing offensive or hostile intended on my part, I assure you.

[SevenStar]

my bench at that time was 350-375
my squat was 425-450 (Iwould hack squat 710lbs)
at that time I was obcessed with the pump I got. it was funny my friends were all lifters of their high School power lifting team I would go to their school to workout their coach always asked me every time I walked into the door "so when are you going to compete for me" I was just into working out I NEVER HAD A DAY OFF! I look back now and I probably should have, I would of done pretty good but I didn't All I know every time I lifted people gathered I was just there to work out No Ego JUST ENJOYED IT

How actively were you stretching?

[fa_jing]

compressed rest periods ( 30, 60 seconds ) will promote hypertrophy of the muscles among other things ( conditioning, strength etc). To emphasize strength, you need long rest periods of 3-5 minutes or more, if you have time to be Paul Anderson sitting around all day lifting weights.

[fa_jing]

and I think 7* was being a bit modest in his lifts - - unless he lies in his training logs.

[7th gen yang]

How actively were you stretching?

Seven star

every day I stretched. But I stretched after my workouts, I just performed warm-ups before my lifts Jogging/sprinting/skipping rope, I did minor stretches for what ever I was was working on at the time, but went into more detailed stretching after my workouts.