Body builders and martial artists

[X-Warrior]

This is an interesting subject to bring up: Body builders and martial arts.

One of my greatest shock during my martial arts learning experiences was to witness body builders trying to learn martial arts in our - and other - schools. The thing is that these muscle giants would come to our class trying to learn martial art yet they turn out to be by far the greatest failures as students. First I didn't know what to make out of it but I think later I understood the problem: these men and women have worked hard at hardening and tightening their muscles by lifting heavy weights and the result of it were they were completely unable to relax to execute the smooth flowing techniques of martial arts. I have actually witnessed this in two separate schools and the most I can recall a body builder suffered is about four months before he would finally give up an leave.

Anyone had similar or different experiences with body builders trying to learn martial art? Anyone seen any real success of a body builder learning an art?

-X-

[brothernumber9]

Try a web search for Hung Ga Sifu Chiu Wai.

[David]

A high-proportion of new students coming in have gym-jock backgrounds. They have a high dropout rate for a couple of reasons.

The first is caused by the gym-blinkers they wear. They come in to class, look around sizing us all up and decide where they slot into the heirarchy(!). All too quickly, they find their muscles don't count for anything in use.

The second is that their muscles physically get in the way, preventing correct alignment, much as if they were obese. Their limbs do not have the freedom of movement of slighter folks because of the exaggerated padding they carry all over.

Most leave at the first realisation. Any that stay around, go through the second 'test' at which point they give up the weights or give up the kung fu.

Rgds,
David

[TonyM.]

Back when I was a correctional officer we had a few guys (inmates) that were body builders. On my first day monitoring the gym I quickly realized none of them could throw a proper (effective) punch.

[cche7]

I made that mistake recently as well. I took a 8 month hiatus from class and when I came back, let's just say I wasn't in the same condition as when I left. I decided to go back to the gym and lift weights in order to get back into shape. Yes, I didn't gain over 40 pounds of muscles and I did feel stronger. The downside was that I felt slower and I was fatiguing much more faster than before. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.

[BIGG S-MANTIS]

im not a body builder but i am a short big guy. i weigh in at 275 lbs and have about 20% body fat. i am a first year student and i like my kung fu and i do see my weight loss in some areas and not in others. any advice that anyone has to help loose the beer belly and the cream cheese thighs would be helpful.

[WinterPalm]

I think that one element that gets in the way is when people too used to using force and pure muscle energy are unable to comprehend the idea of not resisting but flowing, using leverage, applying pressure when needed, etc. Obviously this comes in time but I am starting to be able to tell when someone does or has done a lot of muscle training or is unable to comprehend the idea of not using force all at once but in either little steps, like smooth on and off pressure, or leverage.

On the other hand, if the guy is strong enough he may be able to use force, to an extent, but often it can be used against him, much like aggression. You just have to understand what is happening. Big guys, for many, do not need training as their strength and size gives them a psychological edge, not to mention physical superiority, that is why Kung Fu develops many levels and ways of dealing with opponents and not just an execution of force on force. But getting someone to relax, including yourself in high stress environments or settings can be very difficult.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE=cche7. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.[/QUOTE]

Thats the same point I'm at. If I lift weights its part of a whole body circuit. I incorporate weights and body weight exercises into a continous aerobic workout. It won't make you big but it will give you strength and endurance which is more important for kung fu.

Lol, I'd like to see what would happen to this thread if it was posted in the weight training...ahem....heath and training board.

Maybe I'll post a link.

[Samurai Jack]

Lol, you'd get a reply like mine:

I've been weight training for around six years, and practicing martial arts for twenty-two. Weight training has helped my martial art practice, and I've gained around forty pounds of muscle. The key is practice. Those body-builders who gave up after six months were selling themselves short. They'd be miles ahead of thier peers if they took the time to learn to relax.

The problem is that most untrained individuals think that a big, muscular guy is going to automatically be a great fighter. The fact is that he's going to be just as clumsy as any other untrained guy, plus he'll need to learn, or rather un-learn, any unhealthy habits he's picked up from weight training. Once he does this though, he'll be stronger, faster, and more physically fit than non-weight trained individuals... it just takes a little longer because there's more baggage to let go of.

[Ravenshaw]

When I started lifting weights, I had already been practicing bak siu lum for a few years, so I already knew how to relax. I gained about 10 lbs. of muscle before I joined a wingtsun class. The instructors thought that I would probably be too stiff and inflexible, so they told me I might have a hard time of it. I'm both the biggest and the softest student there.

People who lift before coming into martial arts will have more of a problem, of course, because they don't know how to relax. Plus, although it is common knowledge that one should, I never see lifters stretching at the gym. If they learned to relax and had the flexibility, their muscles may even be an asset. I'm not sure if I know anyone with muscles so big they "get in the way."

As somebody mentioned before, Hung Gar masters Chiu Wai and Chiu Gau were also bodybuilders. I met Chiu Wai once when he visited my sifu's school in the U.S. He is 70-something years old and enormous for his age. Clearly, if trained correctly, weight training is compatible with martial arts.

[Cung-Fu]

Yes, I noticed this problem too.

The problem with that is "bodybuilding" training ( the sets, reps, load percentages, execution) which promote maximum muscles growth also slows down the ability for the muscle fibers to fire rapidly (power). Power which is very important in martial arts and most combative sports. Without quoting, research has shown this.

Another problem with bodybuilding methods is most bodybuilders, ie your local gym jock, trains muscles in isolation, to promote maximum definition and growth of the specific muscle group. That is why when complex movements, such as martial arts, which require synergistic coordination of the entire body are done they are grossly uncoordinated. Your body will respond to the way it trains, no secret there. If you train your muscles to move in isolation and in ways that doesn't mimic your martial arts you can't expect to be a superior martial artist, just cause you got big muscles.

On the other hand, strength training for sports can improve your martial arts ability. I had a semi professional track and field athelete come to learn MA, and boy, once he picked up on flow, coordination and the basics of MA he was someone to be reckoned with.

[SevenStar]

This is an interesting subject to bring up: Body builders and martial arts.

One of my greatest shock during my martial arts learning experiences was to witness body builders trying to learn martial arts in our - and other - schools. The thing is that these muscle giants would come to our class trying to learn martial art yet they turn out to be by far the greatest failures as students. First I didn't know what to make out of it but I think later I understood the problem: these men and women have worked hard at hardening and tightening their muscles by lifting heavy weights and the result of it were they were completely unable to relax to execute the smooth flowing techniques of martial arts. I have actually witnessed this in two separate schools and the most I can recall a body builder suffered is about four months before he would finally give up an leave.

Anyone had similar or different experiences with body builders trying to learn martial art? Anyone seen any real success of a body builder learning an art?

-X-

I come from a bodubuilding background, as do several of the guys I train. There are a few things to keep in mind:

1. stretching. as long as adequate stretching is done, they will be fine.

2. myths - size doesn't make you inflexible and slow - you have to be HYOOOGE in order for that to happen - I mean massively huge - like bigger than dorian yates hyoooge, if you know who he is. There are several body builders who can do a full split.

[SevenStar]

The second is that their muscles physically get in the way, preventing correct alignment, much as if they were obese. Their limbs do not have the freedom of movement of slighter folks because of the exaggerated padding they carry all over.

see above point about stretching.

Most leave at the first realisation. Any that stay around, go through the second 'test' at which point they give up the weights or give up the kung fu.

No need to abandon either - weight training will only help them. They need to be properly educated on how to make their training benefit and cooperate with their MA.

[SevenStar]

Back when I was a correctional officer we had a few guys (inmates) that were body builders. On my first day monitoring the gym I quickly realized none of them could throw a proper (effective) punch.

neither could you before you started training, I'm sure. that's NOT because they are BBs, it's because they are untrained.

[SevenStar]

I made that mistake recently as well. I took a 8 month hiatus from class and when I came back, let's just say I wasn't in the same condition as when I left. I decided to go back to the gym and lift weights in order to get back into shape. Yes, I didn't gain over 40 pounds of muscles and I did feel stronger. The downside was that I felt slower and I was fatiguing much more faster than before. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.

1. you put on 40 lbs - your body wasn't used to working with that extra load on it.

2. YOU TOOK OFF OF TRAINING FOR 8 MONTHS. your conditioning would've gone down anyway, rather you started bulking up or not.

3. it's not that you needed circuit training, it's that you needed some form- any form - of a cardio workout. circuit training was just one option. If you check my blog on the fitness forum, I bench close to 300 and squat over 400 - many of the other posters lift heavy as well. Lifting heavy wasn't slowing you down - it was a combination of other things.