Body builders and martial artists

[SevenStar]

People who lift before coming into martial arts will have more of a problem, of course, because they don't know how to relax. Plus, although it is common knowledge that one should, I never see lifters stretching at the gym. If they learned to relax and had the flexibility, their muscles may even be an asset. I'm not sure if I know anyone with muscles so big they "get in the way."

take a newb and throw him into a grappling class. note what happens. Watch someone sparring for the fist time... they are tense. Why? It's a new thing to them. Once they have been doing it for awhile, they will relax into it. you guys have to stop attributing this to the fact that the person is a body builder.

[Ravenshaw]

you guys have to stop attributing this to the fact that the person is a body builder.

I wasn't. I was saying they'd have more of a problem than I would because they, like any newb as you pointed out, aren't relaxed yet. No disagreement here.

[Samurai Jack]

SevenStar has taken the correct, and knocked it's dang head off... and he lifts weights.

[X-Warrior]

Yup, weight training is good if it's done right. I do light weights and more reps, this increases speed and puts more power into the punches. Heavy weights can make you stiff quick.

I remember this one case when a short but very muscular guy walked in. I showed him a couple of techniques to practice and right away he asked how I would block his punch. He threw the punch, I redirected his power and he d-a-m-n near just flew away.

I think I was more shocked than he was, I realized that he was so incredibly stiff and this will take a long time to correct. I think he did too because he never came back again ... .

A few more lifters followed him and althogh some stayed longer, the results were the same: instructors had to spend extra time and stayed with these guys and gals after class to correct them.

-X-

[SevenStar]

Yup, weight training is good if it's done right. I do light weights and more reps, this increases speed and puts more power into the punches. Heavy weights can make you stiff quick.

I remember this one case when a short but very muscular guy walked in. I showed him a couple of techniques to practice and right away he asked how I would block his punch. He threw the punch, I redirected his power and he d-a-m-n near just flew away.

I think I was more shocked than he was, I realized that he was so incredibly stiff and this will take a long time to correct. I think he did too because he never came back again ... .

A few more lifters followed him and althogh some stayed longer, the results were the same: instructors had to spend extra time and stayed with these guys and gals after class to correct them.

-X-

Actually, light weights don't increase power - they increase muscular endurance. Heavy weights don't make you stiff either. remember to stretch. ANYONE who doesn't stretch adequately will be more stiff than the people who do.

[Cung-Fu]

SevenStar-

Actually, light weights don't increase power - they increase muscular endurance. Heavy weights don't make you stiff either.

Exactly, common misconception. Although power development will depend on exaxctly how light and how heavy the load is, and what phase of strength training you are in, generally, light weights high reps increases endurance.

[hskwarrior]

For once i actually agree with sevenstar. stretching is one of the keys to combining martial arts with body building. One of my students is about 6 ft tall and close to 300 lbs, and not fat. We nickname him iron ox because he is hella solid. The bad thing is that he is super tight all over. At first he couldn't even touch his toes, he had very limited upper body mobility because of being such a strong guy. But since i have been focusing on stretching him more than anyone he has began to show major improvements, can touch his toes now his upper body even has more range of movement.

but the one thing i noticed and tell me if anyone's experienced this is that body builders even though they are noticeably very strong, they are so caught up about how strong they are that they overpower every single gung fu technique.
i have had to tell them to slow down and not use so much power. they are already strong and most likely should start working on speed than anything.

I can't lie as a long time martial artist, it is pretty humorous to watch some body builders try and throw long range techniques like sow choy, or even Kwa Choy.
because of the tightness in their biceps and triceps all their strikes are shortened up.

but once again, the key to bodybuilding and martial arts is stretching. it will work out in the end if the body builder works towards that.


frank

[TonyM.]

Seven star has caught the correct yet again. And I was stupid enough to show a few of these guys a little boxing. Actually they really weren't bad guys, just guys that made stupid mistakes.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

7star: yep, stretching is important for muscle guys. if you can get a vid of iska's 2002 k-1 bout and look at this guy Mcdonald he's a good example of what good weight training and cardio arts can do for a fighter.

here's something that's kinda pilotese (sp?) -ish: start with a 10 lb hex head dumbbell. go through your preforms with it until you can do each preform 30 times with the weight at full speed. then increase your weight five pounds. it may be a slow method but it will not hurt your joints as you progress or shock-damage them by starting with too much weight. after you can do your preforms at 15 lbs then switch to your first form with ten pounds. after that tai chi chuan yang-88. the fast forms combined with a slow form seem to make more of a difference with the people i have trained in the past.

*do not go over 18lbs.* your joints just aren't strong enough to handle it.

[SevenStar]

but the one thing i noticed and tell me if anyone's experienced this is that body builders even though they are noticeably very strong, they are so caught up about how strong they are that they overpower every single gung fu technique.
i have had to tell them to slow down and not use so much power. they are already strong and most likely should start working on speed than anything.

they've conditioned their bodies for that forceful explosion required for them to throw the weight up. I think that is why this happens.

[X-Warrior]

I wanted to add to this subject last week but I just didn't get the time.

Last weekend on one of the cable channels there was a show on women body builders, I don't know if anyone seen it. These women were competing in international competitions and a camera crew followed a couple of them and showed what it's like to become a competitor at this level.

Anyway, the one thing surprised me here - again - is that what they said about these competitors just before they would show up for their show time: when they look the strongest, they are actually at their weekest!

The narrator explained that the competitors work so hard for months that by the time they get to show off their muscles on the stage, they are completely exhausted and unable to lift any weight yet this is the time when their muscles looks the biggest and the most easiest to flex. I thought this was very interesting.

Once again, what you see is not what you get.

-X-
PS: by the way these women all looked so ugly without their two inch make ups that it really grossed me out. They were fantastic looking on stage and on the photo shots but once all the make up came down, they looked like guys who were beaten up every weekend in a bar. From the steroid use their voices were also deep like mens' voices; they all sounded like men when they were talking to each other. Brrrrrrrrrr . Why beautiful women ruin their beauty just for a few pounds of muscles?

[SevenStar]

I wanted to add to this subject last week but I just didn't get the time.

Last weekend on one of the cable channels there was a show on women body builders, I don't know if anyone seen it. These women were competing in international competitions and a camera crew followed a couple of them and showed what it's like to become a competitor at this level.

Anyway, the one thing surprised me here - again - is that what they said about these competitors just before they would show up for their show time: when they look the strongest, they are actually at their weekest!

The narrator explained that the competitors work so hard for months that by the time they get to show off their muscles on the stage, they are completely exhausted and unable to lift any weight yet this is the time when their muscles looks the biggest and the most easiest to flex. I thought this was very interesting.

Once again, what you see is not what you get.

there are a few reasons for that. Another reason is that they are dehydrated somewhat - they don't look that defined all of the time - they need as little bodyfat and water weight as possible. extra water leads to loss of definition. What you see IS what you get though, in their case. They still have their strength. You are talking about guys that bench over 400 lbs. even at their weakest, they are stronger than pretty much everyone else.

PS: by the way these women all looked so ugly without their two inch make ups that it really grossed me out. They were fantastic looking on stage and on the photo shots but once all the make up came down, they looked like guys who were beaten up every weekend in a bar. From the steroid use their voices were also deep like mens' voices; they all sounded like men when they were talking to each other. Brrrrrrrrrr . Why beautiful women ruin their beauty just for a few pounds of muscles?

This is also just during competition season. During the off season, male and female bodybuilders carry more weight on their bodies. So, during the off season, the women look softer - just like any other shapely woman.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I used to body build, and I actually found that it helped my training in wing chun kung fu, But I did streched alot between each set to maintain flexiblity.

I usually took some time off from kung fu while I was wieght training, about 6 month to a year. when I hit a plateu in weight training I would get bored and return to kung fu training. when I did I usually feel stronger but had to retrain my muscles to work in a more fine tune way. I am not quite sure if it's because I didn't train kung fu for a while and therefore loss some coordintaion, or it had to do with different types of muscle memory.

From my understanding power lifting is much more complimentarly to kung fu or martial arts training than body building. It's based on being relaxed and on coordination of the joints by using structural power as opposed to just pumping your muscle with blood like bodybuilding. Also it develops more densely packed muscle fibers for functional strength as oppose to the pumped effect that can be seen in bodybuilding.

In olden days in china alot of traditional kung fu styles used weight training in their curiculam. White crane and SPM used cement wieghts, jar grip training, even some of the two man exercises or chi sao uses the resistance of a training partner.

If you take a look at any recent boxing or NHB event you would clearly see that pretty much all the fighters train with weights, and they shure as hell are not slow or uncoordinated. I think trianing with weights can definately help with any athletics, it can improve speed, power, coordination, stamina as well as mental focus is done in the right way.

Kung Fu fighter

[X-Warrior]

You're correct kung fu fighter, weight training is important in martial arts as well, I was trying to point out the different ways body builders train from martial artists.

As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Martial artists train with leight weights and more reps which doesn't increases but rather condenses muscles and creates a different, more fluid, flexible and exploding power. You are still strong but your powers are 'packed' or hidden more.

I recall an incident when one body builder guy came to our school, I was instructing the new students. Greated him and put him in with the other beginners. I was probably about half of his size, he had huge muscles and I could see he was proud of them. When I got to him again and asked him if he had any questions he asked me how I would block one of his punches - I just knew he was going to that . I told him to throw a punch at me, which he did. I redirected his power which made him very nearly fell over towards his punch.

At this time I was shocked because this was the first time I tried a body builder and just with the touch of my fingers I could redirect his power, and he was shocked because he didn't think this little skinny guy could do that to him. Too bad he never came back after his first class; I think he just realized he was too far into heavy weight training and didn't want to put in the time to correct it to use it for defense.

In other cases I've seen other instructors separating these guys from the others to work with them. They were just so stiff and unable to execute the techniques. Then they all leave in a few months, too bad they all gave up so quickly. They could have learned how to use their great powers, just none of them wanted to put in the time and effort.

It's all in the ability how to use power, not so much how much power you have. It's the martial arts way.

Sorry guys for the long answer.

-X-

[Fitdoc]

Judging from most of the responses in this thread, most of you have terrible misconceptions regarding bodybuilding and bodybuilders' abilities to successfully participate in martial arts (MA) training.

I am a national level competitive bodybuilder and a northern shaolin practitioner. I have had no problems training in both disciplines. In fact, i know numerous persons who train in both bodybuilding and MA or even MMA. Check out www.ronharrismuscle.com, www.teamflexwheeler, and www.jermaineandre.com. These three are only a few of the many, many people who successfully combine MA and bodybuilding.

Also, as some have noted, weightlifting does not make one "slow", just as being a non-weightlifter does not make one "fast". Velocity of a punch, kick, duck, bob, weave, etc, is dependent upon many factors. At 5' 7" and 205 lbs, my sifu says i am one of the quickest students in our school, but i am also the most "muscular". The two attributes are not mutually exclusive.

Lastly, on another note, the TLC program referenced earlier is called "Supersize She" and it was a documentary following English female bodybuilder, Joanne Thomas. The observance that most competitive bodybuilders, including myself, are weakest as a contest approaches is due to two main facts. One, a drastic decrease in caloric intake obviously saps strength and two, weight loss associated with competition preparation invariably involves muscle tissue loss. Though bodybuilders' muscles are actually smaller when we're competing on stage than in the off-season, because of very low bodyfat levels, the illusion is created that we're bigger than usual.

Anyway, the point of this post is to dispel the myth that bodybuilders are incapable of or have great difficulty excelling in MA.