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Thread: Butterfly Swords

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

    Now, don't get me wrong: I am of the opinion that there is sufficient basis and evidence to support your postulate - enough to make it a bona fide working theory. However, again there would be evidence found to add greater support to the idea that a choil of 2/3 of the length of the blade was necessary for "blocking".
    If we had a sampling of authentic chinese butterfly swords from the period in question we could settle a lot of debate. One big misconception that was originally found among western martial arts fans was that swords were "banged" together like you see in the movies. When people that knew blades and knew what to look for had the chance to examine real historical samples (not just museum hangers) they quickly debunked this myth.

    Keith

  2. #32
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    Here's some more info on the butterfly swords.
    http://www.fightauthority.com/module...content&tid=47
    Last edited by duende; 07-19-2005 at 04:08 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat
    OK, I confess I know absolutely nothing about the development of the Baat Jaam Do, but LMAO at the idea that monks would need easily concealable knives more than say, rebels, outlaws, thugs, performers etc...!
    Who is to say that monks created them? From what i have been told the wing chun weapons (long pole and butterfly knives) were added in the last 150 years or so of wing chun. Why would wing chun get the nickname of the assasin's art if buddhist monks created it? I am sure that a lot of developement of wing chun has been outside the temple. That is just my guess though.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

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  4. #34
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    Yaksuka,

    If what you heard ultimately can be substantiated, then the implication is that the BaatChamDo did not start out created for its ultimate purpose. (Cutlers who make knifes and swords but leave every blade unsharpened?) To leave the initial grinding of every single blade to peasants proves difficult to believe unless the initial piece was not intended to be a weapon in the first place.

    KPM,

    Interesting. Your astute observation regarding what archaeologists have managed to determine from existing specimens of the knives and swords surviving in history lends more credence to the idea that if a blade, indeed, has a substantial choil of 2/3 of its length, the reason for it has little to do with considerations for "blocking."

    Charmingly quaint and eccentric beast of burden whose name won't pass the forum's filter,

    I said what I said because I find it difficult to accept what you are suggesting. For myself, I don't mind being wrong; it's one of the reasons I post at all - to see whether what I write can stand the heat of public scrutiny that this forum's quasi "peer review" can bring to the table.

    Setting aside the foggy memories of world history floating around in my head which cause me to suspect you've transposed the iron quality of Europe and the craftsmanship of Japan with those of Southern China for a moment, let me also "shoot out some points" as you have. (I'm at work, too, and could be completely wrong on everything I post here. Feel free to rip me to shreds and make fun of me - isn't that why we all post, anyway? ):

    Why do the people of a territory need weapons? To conquer other territories or to protect their territory. Why does a territory try to conquer other territories? To obtain their natural resources.

    Purely by comparison to other territories, the region where Ving Tsun was born was relatively peaceful throughout much of its history. [Note to historians: I said relatively] This would imply that not only its natural resources were sufficient for its needs, but its resources were not in such abundance or of great quality that other less bountiful territories would be interested enough to obtain them. (Having The Great Wall further north to create archer defensible positions, thus bottling up invaders into "kill zones" surely benefited the region, too. ) It was not until much later in the region's history when the "resource" of trade route access developed more prominence in the region created a stronger need to protect its territory and repel invaders.

    By this time, militaries were already well on their way to using modern weapons. Gunpowder, rockets, mortars, muskets, along with the skills of archers and marksmen deploying the weaponry were already changing the face of warfare - making the need for well crafted blades secondary in a battlefield role.

    Without a strong need for a good battlefield blade combined with the lack of years in the craft's skill refinement implies the region's craftsmanship was probably low. If there was a need and the process was easy (an ease mainly due to the quality of iron and lack of need for Blacksmiths skilled in press welding or smelting), there would literally be hundreds of surviving blade specimens of the eras for archaeologists to uncover and examine. Since they're aren't, making good blades was probably comparatively difficult. Along with the relative peace of the region, this casts doubt on the desirability of iron quality available for other regions to plunder - or at least the ease of mining it in the region. Also, the comparative dearth of superbly crafted specimens from the region and era implies there was not much ceremony surrounding such weapons which, in turn, implies there wasn't much use for bladed weapons. [NOTE: many other KungFu styles from history exhibit a contradictory path from this. But they aren't Ving Tsun. To determine why would require looking at the situations in the depth of their region's history which surrounded the development of so many varied weapons.]


    Now suppose there is a region where the local iron quality was extremely poor and where other natural resources were scarce for hundreds of years before the influence of modern warfare (read: Gunpowder). Due to the very fact that it would be darned hard to make bladed weapons and they still need them, that region will develop:

    - high skill in press welding (not enough coal to develop a smelting process).
    - high skill in blacksmithing.
    - high ceremonial and cultural emphasis on the use of the blade and the weapons themselves.

    What region in history fits the above description? Japan.


    I'll stop here for now. I've reached the point where I'm starting to annoy even myself at the moment (which is never a particularly good thing. ) Perhaps some day I'll get to the deconstruction of your "weapon making qualities were lost" comment and some of the other items in your post - though I can't imagine the kiddies sticking around for the credit reel to run if I continue along the weak matinee storyline.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 07-22-2005 at 12:25 PM.
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  5. #35
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    (My final refrain on the subject)

    Duende,

    ...blood grooves were added to the sides of the blade. This enabled blood to drain more easily when the point of the sword pierced the stomach or other organs.
    I can forgive the lack of references in an article due to it being originally published in a magazine and was cut for brevity. However, the above lines can be independently verified. The above - just one snippet from the article - is most definitely folklore. Since it is so glaring and should have been caught, it casts a shadow of skeptism over the rest of the tenets of the article yet to be cross-referenced sufficiently to both inside and outside of the martial arts world. [ASIDE: It would be nice to see the article updated with references. However, I understand completely how time and priorities can affect what does and does not get done.]

    Any blade sharp enough to "cut in" will also "cut out" - just don't get the blade hung up on bone and don't let go.

    The real reason for the bloodgroove is to stiffen the blade. It may seem odd that removing material from a blade can make it stiffer, but the basic physics can be demonstrated with a piece of paper: A carefully fanfolded paper sheet can stand on edge and balance a plate on top. A bloodgroove in a blade supports the narrower tip area with the same principle (well mostly, but that gives an idea).

    How the bloodgroove received its nickname was because of three factors: 1) During initial manufacture, the groove was not forged or polished well (either a time, quality, or skill/tool factor). making a rough surface. 2) The "capilary action" of blood would fill the rough groove, turning it red. 3) The groove is inherently harder to keep clean. [An alternative: It just rusted itself red. ]

    Soldiers and the local bad guys come back from a skirmish, have a few drinks, and: Voila! The folklore of the bloodgroove is born. The folklore around the bloodgroove is found in most cultures, not just Southern China.

    Still, a bloodgroove on a weapon as short as a BaatChamDo does not stiffen the blade to any practical extent! So why is it found on there? Its purpose is decorative. It is most likely an historical signature of the sword making specialty of the bladesmiths. In my opinion, this gives credence to the claim that the BaatChamDo is decended from a shortened sword design (a broken scimitar?), not from an elongated knife.



    A good bladesmith is just one of the many people from entirely separate fields who can independently either verify or completely refute what I just wrote. But, hey: I'm not one to suggest facts should stand in the way of a good story. So, don't believe me, either. I might be playing a trick, too. If anyone is inclined, go and find out. The nature of true science is that it begs to be proven right or wrong.

    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 07-25-2005 at 12:56 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Tom, i've inserted my responses -whereever they fit


    Charmingly quaint and eccentric beast of burden whose name won't pass the forum's filter,
    ------ thats a cute way to say it ...

    I said what I said because I find it difficult to accept what you are suggesting. For myself, I don't mind being wrong; it's one of the reasons I post at all - to see whether what I write can stand the heat of public scrutiny that this forum's quasi "peer review" can bring to the table.
    ------- well, no - i try not too respond that way. LOL, i actually read most posts in that tone though

    Setting aside the foggy memories of world history floating around in my head which cause me to suspect you've transposed the iron quality of Europe and the craftsmanship of Japan with those of Southern China for a moment, let me also "shoot out some points" as you have. (I'm at work, too, and could be completely wrong on everything I post here. Feel free to rip me to shreds and make fun of me - isn't that why we all post, anyway? ):
    ---------- No, not at all. in fact, i'm not looking at any other country, only China. without any comparisons to other countries.


    By this time, militaries were already well on their way to using modern weapons. Gunpowder, rockets, mortars, muskets, along with the skills of archers and marksmen deploying the weaponry were already changing the face of warfare - making the need for well crafted blades secondary in a battlefield role.

    Without a strong need for a good battlefield blade combined with the lack of years in the craft's skill refinement implies the region's craftsmanship was probably low. If there was a need and the process was easy (an ease mainly due to the quality of iron and lack of need for Blacksmiths skilled in press welding or smelting), there would literally be hundreds of surviving blade specimens of the eras for archaeologists to uncover and examine. Since they're aren't, making good blades was probably comparatively difficult. Along with the relative peace of the region, this casts doubt on the desirability of iron quality available for other regions to plunder - or at least the ease of mining it in the region. Also, the comparative dearth of superbly crafted specimens from the region and era implies there was not much ceremony surrounding such weapons which, in turn, implies there wasn't much use for bladed weapons. [NOTE: many other KungFu styles from history exhibit a contradictory path from this. But they aren't Ving Tsun. To determine why would require looking at the situations in the depth of their region's history which surrounded the development of so many varied weapons.]
    -------- Sounds good to me. makes sense, no disagreements here.


    Now suppose there is a region where the local iron quality was extremely poor and where other natural resources were scarce for hundreds of years before the influence of modern warfare (read: Gunpowder). Due to the very fact that it would be darned hard to make bladed weapons and they still need them, that region will develop:

    - high skill in press welding (not enough coal to develop a smelting process).
    - high skill in blacksmithing.
    - high ceremonial and cultural emphasis on the use of the blade and the weapons themselves.
    ------- granted, i dont know everthing - like the agricultural trades like ferriers (blacksmiths). but i would believe that being a primarily agricultural society that some of these things would be in place.

    What region in history fits the above description? Japan.

    ---------- To a "T"..... no doubt about it. like i said - i was only speaking of China , within itself. now, compared to Japan - its like comparing a Bow/Arrow to a Crossbow....


    I'll stop here for now. I've reached the point where I'm starting to annoy even myself at the moment (which is never a particularly good thing. ) Perhaps some day I'll get to the deconstruction of your "weapon making qualities were lost" comment and some of the other items in your post - though I can't imagine the kiddies sticking around for the credit reel to run if I continue along the weak matinee storyline.
    --------- no problem, you've highlighted some things i aint thought of. but i think that my lack of explanation left a wide open door for "fill-in the blanks"

    by the way, i'm speaking of China's weapon making processes. although many lived on, there is a bulk of knowledge which has been lost. Read up on it, you might find something

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    (My final refrain on the subject)

    Duende,
    The real reason for the bloodgroove is to stiffen the blade. It may seem odd that removing material from a blade can make it stiffer, but the basic physics can be demonstrated with a piece of paper: A carefully fanfolded paper sheet can stand on edge and balance a plate on top. A bloodgroove in a blade supports the narrower tip area with the same principle (well mostly, but that gives an idea).

    How the bloodgroove received its nickname was because of three factors: 1) During initial manufacture, the groove was not forged or polished well (either a time, quality, or skill/tool factor). making a rough surface. 2) The "capilary action" of blood would fill the rough groove, turning it red. 3) The groove is inherently harder to keep clean. [An alternative: It just rusted itself red. ]

    Soldiers and the local bad guys come back from a skirmish, have a few drinks, and: Voila! The folklore of the bloodgroove is born. The folklore around the bloodgroove is found in most cultures, not just Southern China.

    Still, a bloodgroove on a weapon as short as a BaatChamDo does not stiffen the blade to any practical extent! So why is it found on there? Its purpose is decorative. It is most likely an historical signature of the sword making specialty of the bladesmiths. In my opinion, this gives credence to the claim that the BaatChamDo is decended from a shortened sword design (a broken scimitar?), not from an elongated knife.



    A good bladesmith is just one of the many people from entirely separate fields who can independently either verify or completely refute what I just wrote. But, hey: I'm not one to suggest facts should stand in the way of a good story. So, don't believe me, either. I might be playing a trick, too. If anyone is inclined, go and find out. The nature of true science is that it begs to be proven right or wrong.

    Hey Tom,

    Strange that you disagree so strongly when by your own words you state that the groove itself would not add structural benefits due to the relatively short length of the blade itself. Furthermore you state that they do provide a "capilary action"...

    If by your own logic, you consider the bloodgroove decorative, then do you consider the blade guard decorative as well?? Do consider the tassles on the spear decorative too??
    Last edited by duende; 07-25-2005 at 02:33 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by duende
    Hey Tom,

    Strange that you disagree so strongly when by your own words you state that the groove itself would not add structural benefits due to the relatively short length of the blade itself. Furthermore you state that they do provide a "capilary action"...

    If by your own logic, you consider the bloodgroove decorative, then do you consider the blade guard decorative as well?? Do consider the tassles on the spear decorative too??
    I am perfectly willing to accept the premise that the bloodgroove serves a purpose. So I ask:

    Why aren't bloodgrooves on all combat knives and swords? It is doubtful that the people of Southern China bleed differently than people of other regions. And, it takes a great leap in logic to suggest that a relatively peaceful region had such knowledge that all of the rest of the waring armies of the world somehow missed and still refuse to see even today.

    I'll now suggest the primary purpose of a combat blade since shortly after the dawn of modern warfare is utility. Maiming and killing are secondary purposes. Given that premise, it stands to reason that all changes to combat blades since roughly the 16th century onward were: 1) geared toward improving its versatility as a tool, 2) improving durability, 3) improving portability, or 4) improving ease of manufacture. Any and all changes which improved lethality were freebies. The lethal benefits of such redesigns were small, unintended byproducts and would be discarded quickly if such a change can be shown to hamper its primary purpose as a tool to a soldier.


    [TANGENTIAL ANECDOTE: It took Colt Manufacturing two generations of the M16 to solve the problem of a bent barrel from soldiers and marines using the rifle with an affixed bayonet to pry open crates. They were using their primary weapon in a utility role! No amount of training could convince them they shouldn't use a rifle as a substitute for a crowbar. The manufacturer had to add a heavier barrel to its weight, thus giving up what was a small improvement in combat efficiency.]

    (Big Kudos for cooling off and reediting your post.)
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 07-26-2005 at 08:18 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Butterfly Swords

    Hi all,

    Does anyone here know where to buy some good Butterfly Swords. A student here in Thunder Bay wants to buy some, and I told him I would help in the search. Any assistance would be appreciated.

    Thanks.

    James

  10. #40
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    I've had good reports on these:

    http://www2.rpa.net/~artmasters/page2.htm

    I have a pair of "Leung Ting" butterfly swords, unsharpened, brass handles and steel blade. The handles are slightly thinner for my hands than I'd like, but manageable, and I like the weight and balance of them. Swish leather scabbard as well. I got mine from a local MA store, but your local friendly WT outlet might be able to set you in the right direction.

    My instructor has a couple of pairs of really nice swords, but they are both handmade by local knifesmiths, and horribly expensive as by all accounts they are a gigantic PITA to make.
    Last edited by anerlich; 12-20-2005 at 02:42 PM.
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  11. #41
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    Next to my Cold Steel BJD the ones that Sifu Cheung had made in China are the best I've seen. All of mine are gone but Keith Mazza should still have some. They are combat ready and only sharp near the top portion of the blade as the BJD should be for combat. He can be contacted at 856-231-0362. I was going to psot a pic of the knives but the file is to large. I'll make it smaller later then post it.
    Phil
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  12. #42
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    Thanks Guys, I'll pass the information along to the student..

    James

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    Last edited by nelsonmarcelino; 12-20-2005 at 05:05 PM.

  14. #44
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    Here are the knives.
    Phil
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  15. #45
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    They look cracking knives Phil!
    Ip Ching Ving Tsun in South Wales - www.swanseavingtsun.com

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