Butterfly Swords

[BPWT]

Here we go....

In 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Graham H]

We use heavy swords for reps and building the wrist strength, and then PU knives for weapon vs weapon. They dont have the weight but there stronger and last longer than the metal ones and we learnt the hard way about those serrations that you get in the blade, they are seruiously more dangerous than even a sharp edge! By tang I guess you mean quillion which is what we call the trapping section on the top of the handle, it is one of the key aspects of the wing chun swords that makes them different from any other and if your not training with it your missing out.
I guess this is what makes Wing Chun so great, there are so many different opinions on everything and we all will always think our way is best.

All the best and stay safe

Each to their own.

[BPWT]

I guess we'll never know, as no one is actually fighting with them these days ... but do you think they snapped off in actual use?

Or do you think the Tangs are a modern add-on?

[k gledhill]

Our knives

[k gledhill]

I guess we'll never know, as no one is actually fighting with them these days ... but do you think they snapped off in actual use?

Or do you think the Tangs are a modern add-on?

Depends where you are in the world. Home invasion can be answered with " showing " the blades. I held a Kali seminar for a fellow vt student from
Boulder last weekend ( Steve Joffe ) blade fighting makes us move faster and adopt different footwork for evasion and running attacks.
Steve teaches Philippine military all aspects of sword and blade. Machette is a common weapon in some parts. Quillons are bad for our thinking of speed and movement in tight lines.

[BPWT]

I've only met on a few occasions some Pekiti-Tirsia guys, regarding Kali, but yes the footwork is different to Wing Tsun weapons work. Is this the branch of Kali you teach?

But what I meant was, why would the Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun knives have been designed the way they were, if the Tang's are easily snapped off when used?

Or do you mean that the way you use them is particular to the WSL method?

[KPM]

I would think that if you are taking contact on the quillions hard enough to break them off, then you are likely doing something wrong!

[k gledhill]

I've only met on a few occasions some Pekiti-Tirsia guys, regarding Kali, but yes the footwork is different to Wing Tsun weapons work. Is this the branch of Kali you teach?

But what I meant was, why would the Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun knives have been designed the way they were, if the Tang's are easily snapped off when used?

Or do you mean that the way you use them is particular to the WSL method?

I don't teach kali, just personal knowledge of other knife methods.

[LFJ]

By tang I guess you mean quillion which is what we call the trapping section on the top of the handle, it is one of the key aspects of the wing chun swords that makes them different from any other and if your not training with it your missing out.

Trapping section?

Trying to use that little space to catch, trap, and manipulate other weapons at speed is the fantasy knife-fighting equivalent to hand-chasing, only with greatly increased danger. Good luck with that! We'll miss you being able to type on the forum with us.

[GeneChing]

Using a bent guard to catch a blade isn't that difficult, especially if you have two weapons. There's a longstanding history of such usage in European bladed weapons. You'll find parrying hooks on plenty of historical examples of fighting arms, which is testament enough for the practically minded.

I've played with this using parrying daggers and butterfly knives. It's well within the realm of practical techniques. I think the misunderstanding comes with the nomenclature. When someone says "lock" or "trap" or "sword catcher", people tend to equate this to an armlock that needs to be tapped out of, or maybe catching a baseball. The lock doesn't have to be that solid. It's just a modified parry, and most sword parries happen at the guard, and it only needs to be maintained until you stab back. When you have two blades, that can happen pretty quickly.

BTW, you can get Butterfly swords here, but I won't attest to the strength of their parrying hooks.

[LFJ]

I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting methods, but from what I've seen the swords usually have long crossguards used to protect the hands by parrying as more of a backup defense, and not short hooks for deliberate "trapping" like in the picture posted above, which looks terribly dangerous, especially if it's part of your method to go for traps like that to manipulate the opponent's weapon. Even if you were able to catch a katana like that, I would still bet on the leverage of the katana wielded with two hands. I'd like to see it actually done at speed with non-compliant partners.

[Grumblegeezer]

I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting methods, but from what I've seen the swords usually have long crossguards used to protect the hands by parrying as more of a backup defense, and not short hooks for deliberate "trapping" like in the picture posted above...

Sorry LFJ but you are mistaken about that. I used to own a 19th century French bayonet that had a hooked quillion very similar to what you see one many Baat Cham Dao. And a good friend who has spent a couple of decades practicing European sword-arts has several rapiers and some other blades with similarly hooked guards. They were applied in combat as Gene described. My friend does a lot of weapons sparring and I've seen him parry or deflect an opponent's weapon and use the hooked guard to control his blade on numerous occasions.

[LFJ]

It's no wonder people will think all kinds of things will work when this is what they consider "crazy free style wing chun knife sparring".

[Grumblegeezer]

Thats the nail on the head mate. People believe a lot of their stuff works, (with or without knives), because they don't test at speed with non-compliant partners.

European and American history up through the 19th century is replete with verifiable records of such real tests against non-compliant partners, i.e. warfare and dueling. More recently, you cand find similar examples in Filipino Martial Arts.

However in as much as such testing of the real, sharpened weapon at spead against a "non-compliant partner" will typically result in the maiming or death of one or both participants, it would be illegal ...and pretty insane to try today.

Which is why I find this whole debate moot and a bit childish as well. In an era when (at least where I live) almost anybody can carry guns legally, but carrying Bart Cham Dao will get you arrested, who in their right mind trains these weapons with the intention of actually using them (As compared to training to improve your technique, structure and footwork, etc.)?

[Ozzy Dave]

Discussion about the quillion aside for the moment, I'd like to ask Kev and Graham a question about their training knives.

Graham, if I'm viewing the picture correctly your knives have the handle in line with the back of the blade while Kev, your handles are in line with the centre of the blade - could I ask the reason for the difference please as in my experience this changes the nature of wielding the weapon quite a bit?

Dave