OT: Explosions in London

[Merryprankster]

I figure this because the ideology and goals of AQ and like-minded organizations has fantastically little to do with you, me, or Western policy.

They are largely of internal origin - internal to Islam. I am not blaming Islam. I am saying that the justification, the ideology, the mindset, is centuries old, circa mid 1200's. You are looking at the modern manifestation of virulent ideas espoused hundreds of years ago. We are merely the latest enemy in a long chain that they believe will not end until the entire world has been converted to THEIR version of Islam.

This does not mean I think that U.S. policy in the ME is particularly good. It means that it doesn't matter what we do at all. We will be their enemy. Britain will be their enemy, etc. You can get attacked now or later.

We can do things better to stem the spread and appeal of AQ and similar ideology (we are not doing a very good job of this). However, this reaches only those who might become terrorists. Those who have already bought in are lost to us. Still, the attacks themselves are hardly a consequence of Western action; they are the inevitable conclusion of a particular version of Islamic thought.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, pay attention to what MP is saying and you'll start to understand why terrorist do what they do and in the ways they do it. It starts with fundamental religious beliefs, right or wrong and moves out down a myriad of excuse chains. For each attack you could dig down through plenty of reasons why that group did what they did.

1) that for all its stated aims the so called war on terror, that is, the bombing and invasion of Afghanistan has, after 4 years, still not resulted in the capture of Bin Laden and has not diminished the terrorists ability *in any significant way*

Of course one has to wonder what all those foreign "resistance fighters" in Iraq would be doing if they didn't have to fight a war......

[Merryprankster]

It starts with fundamental religious beliefs

Red - to clarify - who are we talking about here? Plenty of non-religious terrorists out there.

It would be more apropriate to say that it starts with being or becoming a revolutionary. Terrorism is a tactic in a war, used by the weak against the strong. Revolutionaries, said most simply and best by Sergei Nechayev in "Catechism of a Revolutionary" are "doomed men." They care only for their cause. People, equipment, relationships, money, are nothing more than means to and end.

The mistake that people make in the issue of AQ and associated groups is that they impart a political (ie policy) cause and solution where none exists. This is reasonable. It is rational. It is entirely within the western realm of experience and tradition.

It is also wrong. AQ does not - DOES NOT - have a political agenda with an acceptable solution. There is no independence to be granted, no state to form, no action that will satisfy their ultimate goals other than adoption of their entire culture. Any "policy solutions," are stop gap measures - just time for them to gather strength as far as they are concerned.

Put simply, AQ has phrased this war in terms of culture. Consequently, it is a cultural war whether we like it or not.

[Nick Forrer]

'Of course one has to wonder what all those foreign "resistance fighters" in Iraq would be doing if they didn't have to fight a war......'

They'd probably be fighting in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Kashmir or any other place they felt Muslims were being oppressed (just as they did in Afghanistan in the 80s against the Soviets).

[Merryprankster]

They'd probably be fighting in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Kashmir or any other place they felt Muslims were being oppressed

Very much so.

Although I think its safe to say that blowing up Americans and Brits is probably more interesting and energizing to AQ's base than, say, Thailand's paramilitary...

[Merryprankster]

That's great and all Andy - and more Imams need to speak out against this.

But there are millions of people who disagree with both you and him. This is like a Baptist telling a Catholic he's not a real Christian.