Mixing Wing Chun W/ MMA, "Jack of all trades or master of none"

[WingChunTao]

There has been alot of talk lately about mixing Wing Chun w/ MMA.
I'm curious as to how much time is spent on mastering Wing Chun or MMA (Ratio of time spent-WC vs. MMA).
Do you spend more time on one or the other? I'm just wondering because if so much time is spent on mixing different martial arts then how does one master one single art or style like Wing Chun? I'm only asking because I'm a classically trained guitarist (21 yrs) who has spent years mastering the art of the guitar. Once I learned to play the classical guitar, then and only then did I learn other styles. If I spent my time learning to play many styles all at once then I would have never mastered one. Call me Curious George. Peace

[bonetone]

As a master of classical guitar, do you find it easy to pick up other forms of music and express yourself? or do you find that your strict training has made you bound to one particular mindset of playing? If you had been experiencing other forms of music, do think you would be able to play with anyone anytime, rather than in just a strict classical setting? What would it hurt to play the blues now and again? How useful is your strict classical training in a free form improv jam session? Fighting is a free form improv, using your classical style won't always be the best mode of expression. Does eating different types of food and using different cooking methods alter your ability to eat, or does it enhance your eating habits? Does learning other ideas of fighting keep you from being a better fighter, or is it that one mindset keeps you from being a better fighter?

In my opinion style is an illusion, a set of limitations. Wing Chun is not suited to everyone, how will you know if you're missing out on something better if you don't look around. Do you want to play pretty forms, or do you want to know how to use your strengths and weaknesses in combat.What is your goal in training? Is it to say i know how to do Wing Chun and I might be able to use it to fight, or is your goal to better yourself in all areas of life and know what works for you in a fight? I'm not saying don't master a style, but don't let the style control you. Be yourself. i can't stand when people don't use something useful just because it isn't in their style. yet they adhere to useless techniques because they are in the style. Just my thougths, I'm sure most people won't agree with me, but I'm not looking to be part of the in-crowd anyway.

[Redd]

I'm sure most people won't agree with me, but I'm not looking to be part of the in-crowd anyway.

You are part of the in crowd here.

[Mr Punch]

The simple answer is move on to learn some other arts (IF you want to) when you're sifu tells you to, or when you ask him and he says yes, or if you are capable of making judgments yourself like a weal gwowed-up, when you can handle yourself.

The extension to the last point would be: of course, if you have a good relationship to an honest sifu, you should ask anyway, and he'll say yes.

How you know when you can handle yourself depends on your experience outside, or in the ring, or when you seem to be able to cope reasonably with whatever your training bros throw at you... within reason of course. This takes honesty.

Of course, those who could handle themselves before they started training should be able to accelerate the process, but whether they can/will/will want to absorb whatever you may define as 'real' wing chun is another matter.

There follows a long boring personal history. I spent 5 years training (pretty much) every day in the dojo (and out) in aikido, plus mixing it up with sparring partners from other arts... then I asked my sensei if I could take some karate to sharpen up my attacks and get a different perspective and base before I took my shodan, and he said yes. I did that karate for about two years through my aiki shodan. After a chat to both sensei, I decided that it wasn't going to be productive anymore.

At about the same time I had my first intro to WC, and started to learn the basics (again with the knowledge and approval of my aiki sensei). After a while I had to move away from my aiki dojo, and where I moved to the aiki was hopeless, but I found a great WC school. I did that three times a week in the kwoon, everyday with my sihing (we shared a house) and once a week private/semi-private class with my sifu and his sifu and his sifu... for about three years. Plus mixing it up with anybody who would from any discipline.

Then after a series of moves, different dojo/kwoon I wound up at an MMA school. My main focus is still WC, but I still mix it up.[/history]

I'm not a master of anything, but to me MA is not to master, just to learn, and I'm still learning, getting more effective, using principles from my primary systems.

The bottom line is lighten up and don't sweat it (but sweat the training!). It's a fighting system. If you can't use it against other styles and people, or if it uses you to the point that you slavishly repeat stuff that people tell you without testing it realistically, you're not even doing wing chun let alone MMA!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"There has been alot of talk lately about mixing Wing Chun w/ MMA.
I'm curious as to how much time is spent on mastering Wing Chun or MMA (Ratio of time spent-WC vs. MMA)... Do you spend more time on one or the other? I'm just wondering because if so much time is spent on mixing different martial arts then how does one master one single art or style like Wing Chun? I'm only asking because I'm a classically trained guitarist (21 yrs) who has spent years mastering the art of the guitar. Once I learned to play the classical guitar, then and only then did I learn other styles." (WingChunTao)


****THANKS for the endorsement, wct.

I've been doing wing chun for literally 30 years...and I didn't even begin to start mixing it with other arts until about 10 years ago. So according to your logic, I've earned the right to do the MMA thing without being one of those "jack of all trades - master of none" guys.

Now back to the "To Those Who Mix Wing Chun" thread... See ya' later.

[Ali Rahim]

That is a hard post to reply to,, when you haven't taken your system to the end as far as mastery of the art (Wing Chun)... If anyone answers this post the way the person wants them to,, it will show the lack of ability and time that they put into one art. Remember all arts are based on fundamentals... When learning an art one has to start at the begining for ex.. Wing Chun has SLT, Judo has break falls, even basketball has its basic dribbling. If one tries to mix arts with other arts they are trying to get immediate gratification from something that they do not have a strong understanding of... So therefore when something doesn't work as their new found eintity they tend to find another MA that will supplement the weakness of their MMA system... While legitimately not haveing certificates and notification of them having finished or mastered the fundamental of each system of their MA,, within their system(MMA)... It takes anywhere from 2-3 years to master the fundamentals of most MA's. Therefore if you train in 4-5 MA's at one time it will take you 8-10 years to master the fundamentals of every art that is mixed in your system. It is just my opionion... But for thoes who did'nt know thier is a MMA FORUM ON THIS WEB SITE.

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

[azwingchun]

I am going to have to jump to your side of this.....I always laugh when I see websites with people making 'master' claims of 5 or 6 styles. My laughter isn't so much at them, but the statement itself. I may not win any popularity contest by saying this, and honestly I try not to be so critical of others. But people who make claims of mastery or 4,5,6 arts or some even more.....how is mastery of 5-6 arts completely possible? I am not trying to stir things up, but to me mastery is much more than getting a title of 'Master'.

I myself would hate to have the title 'Master'......to me this conveys that I have learned everything there is within my chosen art/field. Does this mean I am finished? Does this mean I have to move on to keep myself learning and/ or challenged? Plus the term 'Master' is a lot of weight to carry, what if someone is better than me......am I still truly a 'Master', or are they? What if I lose in a fight.....do I still deserve to be called a 'Master'?

I know some of that sounds sarcastic, but what does it truly mean to be a 'Master'? I read an internet site somewhere (and yes, it was a Wing Chun site), the person that runs the school stated that someone in the music industry said once that if you have spent 40 or 50 years learning one exact thing...then you may deserve to call yourself a 'Master'. But can we really put a finger on it by using a time scale?

[stricker]

I'd say it's a really personal thing, what are your motivations and goals (if any)? What's your background? The way i see it it really helps to have some background and experience of other martial arts.

Oh and other martial arts are definitely a valid topic on a wing chun forum, wing chun is about fighting, you fight other people who perhaps train in other martial arts, so you have to talk about other people as well as yourself! Whats the big deal?

As for jack of all trades master of none it just depends what your attitude is, if you think you're some sort of bad dude a know it all or a smart arse it doesnt matter if you know a little bit of 20 martial arts or 1.

I've taken up mma on top of wing chun because i realised i'm not in some mad race to be the best, get grades, become a master or instructor or whatever, i've got my whole life in front of me to learn wing chun so why not learn some other stuff too. I do think wing chun has all the answers (maybe not on the ground) but you need to know the questions too.

[lawrenceofidaho]

20% weapon range (Escrima and a bit of Wing Chun long pole work)
30% long-range stand up (Wing Chun, Boxing, and Muay Thai)
20% clinch-range work (Wing Chun, Wrestling, and Muay Thai)
30% ground work (Jiu-Jitsu and Wrestling)

There seems to be an implication by some that being a "master of one" is superior to the "jack of many" route, and while this may be true in certain endeavors or particular circumstances of Life, I feel it is an unwise choice if your goal is to become an effective fighter in either; a limited rules arena, or street / self-defense situations.

At one time, in NHB's young history, it was common to see a mixed martial artist with 2-4 years of training defeat a pure stylist with 15+ years of training under their belt, but I will emphasize the word was, because nearly every competitive NHB fighter cross-trains today. -Why? Because they realize a dramatic increase in results when they do it.

Of course a majority of fighters will have preferences, and particular areas that they specialize in, but being pragmatic (as a competitive fighter must be), they know that they will be facing talented competition that are going to try their best to take them out of their game. In order to be as prepared as possible, they will train frequently in areas outside their specialty so as to have a workable "plan B" (and C, and D.......) if things begin to break down.

If you are not very interested in developing fighting ability, then it becomes entirely subjective, and only a matter of personal choice as to what gives you the most enjoyment.
Follow Your Bliss.......

-Lawrence

[WingChunTao]

Only after I mastered the art of playing classical guitar did I move on to learn other guitar styles or even other types of music. I now can play classical, jazz, blues, country, flamenco and even Native American music (my heritage) very well. I could only have done this from having a base knowledge and good grounding in classical guitar techniques (chords, arpeggios, scales) and theory first. Now when I play guitar no matter what kind of music it is, I stick to the fundamentals and basics (principles) of my training. I play the way I was trained (above) and i don't deviate from it. Beethoven could have never written the works he did if he did not master the art of composition, especially after he lost his hearing.
If this kind of mastery is done in the classical, jazz and latin jazz music worlds and in other mediums (caligraphy, writting, painting, sculpture etc..) then why not in Wing Chun or what ever MA art you choose.
I train my Wing Chun with the same mentality and discipline that I used when I was trying to master the guitar.

I would still like to hear more about the training ratios. How much time is spent training WC, grappling, chop socky or what ever as I mentioned in the begining of this thread. Thanks and Peace.

[lawrenceofidaho]

If this kind of mastery is done in the classical, jazz and latin jazz music worlds and in other mediums (caligraphy, writting, painting, sculpture etc..) then why not in Wing Chun or what ever MA art you choose.
I train my Wing Chun with the same mentality and discipline that I used when I was trying to master the guitar.

I feel that the given analogies are not valid in this case.......

Caligraphy, writing, painting, sculpture, and musical composition all basically occur in a vaccuum. The artist starts with a blank paper in front of him (or shapeless block of clay, etc...), and then essentially does what he will (at his own pace, and without any resistance) until such time that he is satisfied with the results he has produced. -I don't see how these would be in any way analogous to fighting arts.

Performance in music (playing structured songs) is an execution of a pattern where one knows exactly what to expect from moment to moment. This is the equivalent of executing a choreographed martial arts demo, that (while it may require a certain amount of physical ability to do well) has very little in common with the intense and unpredictable nature of real combat.

Jazz improvisation comes the closest to being what I feel might be a valid analogy because of the spontanaeity and responsiveness it demands, but even then, it is contained within a limited set of parameters. -What I mean is, you agree beforehand to play jazz , and not country music, heavy metal, or a waltz. Someone who knew only jazz music would be completely lost if their bandmates suddenly switched over to one of those styles in the middle of a jam session......... Just like the pure striker who gets taken to the ground and is helpless, or the pure grappler who goes up against a guy like Cro Cop that he can't take down, and doesn't have any other defense against strikes other than his [ineffective] tackles.

Pure boxing is all you'll need.......if all you plan to ever do with it is step into a boxing ring, and pure jiu jitsu is all you ever need....... if you only ever plan to roll on the mats, but if you want to do well in minimal rules fighting (or no-rules street fighting), you will need to study more than one discipline, IMO.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

20% weapon range (Escrima and a bit of Wing Chun long pole work)
30% long-range stand up (Wing Chun, Boxing, and Muay Thai)
20% clinch-range work (Wing Chun, Wrestling, and Muay Thai)
30% ground work (Jiu-Jitsu and Wrestling)

There seems to be an implication by some that being a "master of one" is superior to the "jack of many" route, and while this may be true in certain endeavors or particular circumstances of Life, I feel it is an unwise choice if your goal is to become an effective fighter in either; a limited rules arena, or street / self-defense situations.

At one time, in NHB's young history, it was common to see a mixed martial artist with 2-4 years of training defeat a pure stylist with 15+ years of training under their belt, but I will emphasize the word was, because nearly every competitive NHB fighter cross-trains today. -Why? Because they realize a dramatic increase in results when they do it.


Of course a majority of fighters will have preferences, and particular areas that they specialize in, but being pragmatic (as a competitive fighter must be), they know that they will be facing talented competition that are going to try their best to take them out of their game. In order to be as prepared as possible, they will train frequently in areas outside their specialty so as to have a workable "plan B" (and C, and D.......) if things begin to break down.

If you are not very interested in developing fighting ability, then it becomes entirely subjective, and only a matter of personal choice as to what gives you the most enjoyment.
Follow Your Bliss.......

-Lawrence

The problem with the above and using COMPETITIONS as a gauge of Martial Arts effectiveness is simply the fact that the competetors are aware of the others they may fight before hand, there for they are aware of their opponents style or system of fighting and also the strengths and weaknessees. In a reality situation, where an attack can happen ANYWHERE at ANYTIME, you have no idea of the skills of your opponent, so the element of surprise is overwhelemingly effective here. WC allows for quick resolutions here and works very well for the well trained practitioner in surprise situations, since the Art is based on simplicity and economy of motion. Also, my observation of the converstations regarding this subject seem to imply that when a Martial Arts practitioner is a "Master of One" that they are still lacking experience in a particular relem of combat, why would this be the case, especially concerning WC which in my mind is a very complete Martial Art and capable of handling anything that comes its way in regards to self defense and combat fighting, regardless of the range of the fight. IMO all fighting is close range, sooner or later you will be close to your opponent, and inside the kicking range.

Yes I do agree that it is wise to be aware of the other arts and to practice with them to gain exposure and such, no problems there. But to actually try and master all of them, and this being the only way to be combat effective is a wrong assumption IMO.

James

[WingChunTao]

[QUOTE=lawrenceofidaho]I feel that the given analogies are not valid in this case......."Caligraphy, writing, painting, sculpture, and musical composition all basically occur in a vaccuum. The artist starts with a blank paper in front of him (or shapeless block of clay, etc...), and then essentially does what he will (at his own pace, and without any resistance) until such time that he is satisfied with the results he has produced. -I don't see how these would be in any way analogous to fighting arts".

They still have to have mastered the fundamental skills of their arts to be able to transform that blank paper, canvas or clay into a work of art. Martial arts should be no different. Once the basics have been mastered then and only then did these people move on. Coltrane, Miles Davis, Picasso, Rembrandt, Beethoven, Bach, Leung Jan, Yip Man, Augustine Fong and many others all mastered their arts and its basics. Without their mastery where would they or we be today (art wise).

[anerlich]

Frank Shamrock became a world MMA champion in 18 months.

Most of the YM style "grandmasters" only spent a few years with the great man.

Japanese TMA have a philosophy of Shu, Ha, Ri, where you are EXPECTED, after about 10 years training, to seek other methodologies, look at the weaknesses of your system, and break the rules.

Most arts and activities take five years of less of study before one is professionally qualified, and you are generally regarded as an advanced practitioner after ten. Sure, everyone gets better with experience, but breadth is as much a factor of experience as depth. Western Medicine, and probably TCM as well, are such disciplines. somehow I don't think any TMA measures up to either discipline in either complexity or importance of getting it exact.

Nor does it take these amount of times to train SAS troopers, elite soldiers.

If after five or ten years, you haven't reached a stage where you can go outside the limits laid down by your instructors without losing your way, IMO something is very wrong with their teaching methodology. Either that or they have control issues or are protecting their rice bowls.

I've done WC for 16 years. These days I'm going pretty heavy on the BJJ and clinch work, because that's the facets of my game that I need to catch up on. Overall improvement comes from working on your weaknesses, not your strengths.

[lawrenceofidaho]

The problem with the above and using COMPETITIONS as a gauge of Martial Arts effectiveness is simply the fact that the competetors are aware of the others they may fight before hand, there for they are aware of their opponents style or system of fighting and also the strengths and weaknessees. In a reality situation, where an attack can happen ANYWHERE at ANYTIME, you have no idea of the skills of your opponent, so the element of surprise is overwhelemingly effective here.

This is true, but I also believe that self defense skills and "street smarts" taught by guys like; Sanford Strong, Gavin De Becker, and Geoff Thompson will be much more a deciding factor in the initial stages of a street confrontation than which style's techniques you choose to use at the beginning of a fight.

WC allows for quick resolutions here and works very well for the well trained practitioner in surprise situations, since the Art is based on simplicity and economy of motion.

I agree that Wing Chun has some effective solutions for these kinds of situations, but other arts such as Boxing and Muay Thai are not primative, unevolved, or unrealistic either.

Also, my observation of the converstations regarding this subject seem to imply that when a Martial Arts practitioner is a "Master of One" that they are still lacking experience in a particular realm of combat, why would this be the case, especially concerning WC which in my mind is a very complete Martial Art and capable of handling anything that comes its way in regards to self defense and combat fighting, regardless of the range of the fight.

There was a time when I believed that, but I don't any longer....... I think other "pure" Wing Chun guys like; Scott Baker, David Levicki, Abel Cancio, and Steve Faulkner also believed it until they stepped into the cage and had their minds changed within a minute, or so.

Yes I do agree that it is wise to be aware of the other arts and to practice with them to gain exposure and such, no problems there. But to actually try and master all of them, and this being the only way to be combat effective is a wrong assumption IMO.

I don't think you have to master all of them either. -Just learn solid fundamentals from someone good and maintain those basics. -When it comes to groundfighting, learn all of the essentials, but try to focus on; avoiding takedowns, escapes, and standing back up. -Please see Nick Forrer's and Andrew Nerlich's excellent posts here:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=35061

James,

I think you are a pretty decent guy, and I'm sorry that it seems we are always at odds with each other on every thread we both post on....... If I really thought you'd do it, I'd pay for a couple of month's tuition for you to train exclusively at an MMA gym in your area (and take a couple of months off of Wing Chun), if you'd agree to keep a daily blog about your experiences there, and try to get at least a few minutes worth of video footage of your training that you could post online. (I just got my tax return money, and it's burning a hole in my pocket! )

-Lawrence