Mixing Wing Chun W/ MMA, "Jack of all trades or master of none"

[WingChunTao]

There has been alot of talk lately about mixing Wing Chun w/ MMA.
I'm curious as to how much time is spent on mastering Wing Chun or MMA (Ratio of time spent-WC vs. MMA).
Do you spend more time on one or the other? I'm just wondering because if so much time is spent on mixing different martial arts then how does one master one single art or style like Wing Chun? I'm only asking because I'm a classically trained guitarist (21 yrs) who has spent years mastering the art of the guitar. Once I learned to play the classical guitar, then and only then did I learn other styles. If I spent my time learning to play many styles all at once then I would have never mastered one. Call me Curious George. Peace

[bonetone]

As a master of classical guitar, do you find it easy to pick up other forms of music and express yourself? or do you find that your strict training has made you bound to one particular mindset of playing? If you had been experiencing other forms of music, do think you would be able to play with anyone anytime, rather than in just a strict classical setting? What would it hurt to play the blues now and again? How useful is your strict classical training in a free form improv jam session? Fighting is a free form improv, using your classical style won't always be the best mode of expression. Does eating different types of food and using different cooking methods alter your ability to eat, or does it enhance your eating habits? Does learning other ideas of fighting keep you from being a better fighter, or is it that one mindset keeps you from being a better fighter?

In my opinion style is an illusion, a set of limitations. Wing Chun is not suited to everyone, how will you know if you're missing out on something better if you don't look around. Do you want to play pretty forms, or do you want to know how to use your strengths and weaknesses in combat.What is your goal in training? Is it to say i know how to do Wing Chun and I might be able to use it to fight, or is your goal to better yourself in all areas of life and know what works for you in a fight? I'm not saying don't master a style, but don't let the style control you. Be yourself. i can't stand when people don't use something useful just because it isn't in their style. yet they adhere to useless techniques because they are in the style. Just my thougths, I'm sure most people won't agree with me, but I'm not looking to be part of the in-crowd anyway.

[Redd]

I'm sure most people won't agree with me, but I'm not looking to be part of the in-crowd anyway.

You are part of the in crowd here.

[Mr Punch]

The simple answer is move on to learn some other arts (IF you want to) when you're sifu tells you to, or when you ask him and he says yes, or if you are capable of making judgments yourself like a weal gwowed-up, when you can handle yourself.

The extension to the last point would be: of course, if you have a good relationship to an honest sifu, you should ask anyway, and he'll say yes.

How you know when you can handle yourself depends on your experience outside, or in the ring, or when you seem to be able to cope reasonably with whatever your training bros throw at you... within reason of course. This takes honesty.

Of course, those who could handle themselves before they started training should be able to accelerate the process, but whether they can/will/will want to absorb whatever you may define as 'real' wing chun is another matter.

There follows a long boring personal history. I spent 5 years training (pretty much) every day in the dojo (and out) in aikido, plus mixing it up with sparring partners from other arts... then I asked my sensei if I could take some karate to sharpen up my attacks and get a different perspective and base before I took my shodan, and he said yes. I did that karate for about two years through my aiki shodan. After a chat to both sensei, I decided that it wasn't going to be productive anymore.

At about the same time I had my first intro to WC, and started to learn the basics (again with the knowledge and approval of my aiki sensei). After a while I had to move away from my aiki dojo, and where I moved to the aiki was hopeless, but I found a great WC school. I did that three times a week in the kwoon, everyday with my sihing (we shared a house) and once a week private/semi-private class with my sifu and his sifu and his sifu... for about three years. Plus mixing it up with anybody who would from any discipline.

Then after a series of moves, different dojo/kwoon I wound up at an MMA school. My main focus is still WC, but I still mix it up.[/history]

I'm not a master of anything, but to me MA is not to master, just to learn, and I'm still learning, getting more effective, using principles from my primary systems.

The bottom line is lighten up and don't sweat it (but sweat the training!). It's a fighting system. If you can't use it against other styles and people, or if it uses you to the point that you slavishly repeat stuff that people tell you without testing it realistically, you're not even doing wing chun let alone MMA!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"There has been alot of talk lately about mixing Wing Chun w/ MMA.
I'm curious as to how much time is spent on mastering Wing Chun or MMA (Ratio of time spent-WC vs. MMA)... Do you spend more time on one or the other? I'm just wondering because if so much time is spent on mixing different martial arts then how does one master one single art or style like Wing Chun? I'm only asking because I'm a classically trained guitarist (21 yrs) who has spent years mastering the art of the guitar. Once I learned to play the classical guitar, then and only then did I learn other styles." (WingChunTao)


****THANKS for the endorsement, wct.

I've been doing wing chun for literally 30 years...and I didn't even begin to start mixing it with other arts until about 10 years ago. So according to your logic, I've earned the right to do the MMA thing without being one of those "jack of all trades - master of none" guys.

Now back to the "To Those Who Mix Wing Chun" thread... See ya' later.

[Ali Rahim]

That is a hard post to reply to,, when you haven't taken your system to the end as far as mastery of the art (Wing Chun)... If anyone answers this post the way the person wants them to,, it will show the lack of ability and time that they put into one art. Remember all arts are based on fundamentals... When learning an art one has to start at the begining for ex.. Wing Chun has SLT, Judo has break falls, even basketball has its basic dribbling. If one tries to mix arts with other arts they are trying to get immediate gratification from something that they do not have a strong understanding of... So therefore when something doesn't work as their new found eintity they tend to find another MA that will supplement the weakness of their MMA system... While legitimately not haveing certificates and notification of them having finished or mastered the fundamental of each system of their MA,, within their system(MMA)... It takes anywhere from 2-3 years to master the fundamentals of most MA's. Therefore if you train in 4-5 MA's at one time it will take you 8-10 years to master the fundamentals of every art that is mixed in your system. It is just my opionion... But for thoes who did'nt know thier is a MMA FORUM ON THIS WEB SITE.

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

[azwingchun]

I am going to have to jump to your side of this.....I always laugh when I see websites with people making 'master' claims of 5 or 6 styles. My laughter isn't so much at them, but the statement itself. I may not win any popularity contest by saying this, and honestly I try not to be so critical of others. But people who make claims of mastery or 4,5,6 arts or some even more.....how is mastery of 5-6 arts completely possible? I am not trying to stir things up, but to me mastery is much more than getting a title of 'Master'.

I myself would hate to have the title 'Master'......to me this conveys that I have learned everything there is within my chosen art/field. Does this mean I am finished? Does this mean I have to move on to keep myself learning and/ or challenged? Plus the term 'Master' is a lot of weight to carry, what if someone is better than me......am I still truly a 'Master', or are they? What if I lose in a fight.....do I still deserve to be called a 'Master'?

I know some of that sounds sarcastic, but what does it truly mean to be a 'Master'? I read an internet site somewhere (and yes, it was a Wing Chun site), the person that runs the school stated that someone in the music industry said once that if you have spent 40 or 50 years learning one exact thing...then you may deserve to call yourself a 'Master'. But can we really put a finger on it by using a time scale?

[stricker]

I'd say it's a really personal thing, what are your motivations and goals (if any)? What's your background? The way i see it it really helps to have some background and experience of other martial arts.

Oh and other martial arts are definitely a valid topic on a wing chun forum, wing chun is about fighting, you fight other people who perhaps train in other martial arts, so you have to talk about other people as well as yourself! Whats the big deal?

As for jack of all trades master of none it just depends what your attitude is, if you think you're some sort of bad dude a know it all or a smart arse it doesnt matter if you know a little bit of 20 martial arts or 1.

I've taken up mma on top of wing chun because i realised i'm not in some mad race to be the best, get grades, become a master or instructor or whatever, i've got my whole life in front of me to learn wing chun so why not learn some other stuff too. I do think wing chun has all the answers (maybe not on the ground) but you need to know the questions too.

[lawrenceofidaho]

20% weapon range (Escrima and a bit of Wing Chun long pole work)
30% long-range stand up (Wing Chun, Boxing, and Muay Thai)
20% clinch-range work (Wing Chun, Wrestling, and Muay Thai)
30% ground work (Jiu-Jitsu and Wrestling)

There seems to be an implication by some that being a "master of one" is superior to the "jack of many" route, and while this may be true in certain endeavors or particular circumstances of Life, I feel it is an unwise choice if your goal is to become an effective fighter in either; a limited rules arena, or street / self-defense situations.

At one time, in NHB's young history, it was common to see a mixed martial artist with 2-4 years of training defeat a pure stylist with 15+ years of training under their belt, but I will emphasize the word was, because nearly every competitive NHB fighter cross-trains today. -Why? Because they realize a dramatic increase in results when they do it.

Of course a majority of fighters will have preferences, and particular areas that they specialize in, but being pragmatic (as a competitive fighter must be), they know that they will be facing talented competition that are going to try their best to take them out of their game. In order to be as prepared as possible, they will train frequently in areas outside their specialty so as to have a workable "plan B" (and C, and D.......) if things begin to break down.

If you are not very interested in developing fighting ability, then it becomes entirely subjective, and only a matter of personal choice as to what gives you the most enjoyment.
Follow Your Bliss.......

-Lawrence

[WingChunTao]

Only after I mastered the art of playing classical guitar did I move on to learn other guitar styles or even other types of music. I now can play classical, jazz, blues, country, flamenco and even Native American music (my heritage) very well. I could only have done this from having a base knowledge and good grounding in classical guitar techniques (chords, arpeggios, scales) and theory first. Now when I play guitar no matter what kind of music it is, I stick to the fundamentals and basics (principles) of my training. I play the way I was trained (above) and i don't deviate from it. Beethoven could have never written the works he did if he did not master the art of composition, especially after he lost his hearing.
If this kind of mastery is done in the classical, jazz and latin jazz music worlds and in other mediums (caligraphy, writting, painting, sculpture etc..) then why not in Wing Chun or what ever MA art you choose.
I train my Wing Chun with the same mentality and discipline that I used when I was trying to master the guitar.

I would still like to hear more about the training ratios. How much time is spent training WC, grappling, chop socky or what ever as I mentioned in the begining of this thread. Thanks and Peace.