San Sik

[taichi4eva]

I am learning the san sik from Yuen Kay San Wing Chun Kuen right now. I was wondering if there was a formal way to practice them. My teacher just teaches me the technique and applications. I was wondering if there was an opening and a closing form, as well as a number of repetitions that is common to all practicioners.

[bonetone]

You must mean SumNung Wing Chun, YKS didn't do the 12 SanSik, he was a purest it would seem. The 12 SanSik come from Cheung Bo, a cook and who only knew those 12 SanSik wing Chun moves.

[Edmund]

You must mean SumNung Wing Chun, YKS didn't do the 12 SanSik, he was a purest it would seem. The 12 SanSik come from Cheung Bo, a cook and who only knew those 12 SanSik wing Chun moves. Why does sihing73 keep editing my posts for me? Is he afraid of the truth? Was anyone realy insulted when i said if Cheunf Bo were rich he could afford to learn the whole Wing Chun system and get stoned like all the other Wing Chun masters?

What the ? You don't know where the San sik comes from at all. Truth my butt!

Sum Nung created 12 san sik from the san sik that Cheung Bo taught him.
Cheung Bo probably had more than 12.

Yuen Kay San also learnt San sik from Fung Siu-ching!
Sheesh! Where did you learn about YKS wing chun, bonetone?

It means a collection of techniques, ideas or drills.
There's no set number of times or whatever because it's not particularly formal.

taichi4eva,

Why did you ask about the Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Faat in that other thread if you already learning YKS WC?

[taichi4eva]

I just started...I just wanted to know

[bonetone]

What the ? You don't know where the San sik comes from at all. Truth my butt!

Sum Nung created 12 san sik from the san sik that Cheung Bo taught him.
Cheung Bo probably had more than 12.

Yuen Kay San also learnt San sik from Fung Siu-ching!
Sheesh! Where did you learn about YKS wing chun, bonetone?

It means a collection of techniques, ideas or drills.
There's no set number of times or whatever because it's not particularly formal.

taichi4eva,

Why did you ask about the Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Faat in that other thread if you already learning YKS WC?

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

[Edmund]

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

Pfft.
Read what I wrote: YKS learnt san sik from Fung Siu Ching.
Sum Num learnt san sik from Cheung Bo. I never said they were the same.

YOU claimed that Cheung Bo taught only 12 due to him not learning the full WC system. That's incorrect. He learnt it how it was taught.

He had more than 12 techniques and the type of WC he learnt was taught in san sik form - just like Fung Siu Ching taught his WC to YKS.

AND YKS did pass these Fung Siu Ching san sik techniques on to Sum Nung. Sum Nung also taught Fung Siu Ching techniques to his students although they were not formally part of the 12 that he called Sup Yee (12) Sik. A lot of the Kum Na that Sum Nung taught was from san sik that YKS learnt from Fung Siu Ching.

to have a specific number of them is a limitation

And you're saying I'm disrespectful. You think techniques that Sum Nung made into the 12 San Sik are a limitation?

There's other Cheung Bo techniques placed within the dummy form.

Where did you learn YKS WC?

Apologies to taichi4eva for sidetracking the thread but this sort of misinformed "opinion piece" has to be corrected for factual accuracy.

[martyg]

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

You're partially right, though appearing to come off a bit dissrespectful your self through some of the accusations.

Sum Nung had two teachers, the first being Cheung Bo and the second being Yuen Kay San. It is still not entirely clear what Cheung Bo's san sik were based off of (early research suggested them a descendant of Gulou/Koo lo, but more recent research suggests a more direct fukien white crane weng chun derivitive).

Yuen Kay San told him to combine his knowlege of Cheung Bo's system with what he was teaching him in order to preserve and respect. And you would be incorrect - the 12 san sik are a combination of the san sik Sum Nung learned from Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San. So the fact that Sum Nung taught the organized 12 san sik was actually being respectfull of YKS's wishes.

Secondly, there's no such thing as a "purist". Every sifu puts their own stamp on things and continues to evolve their system. Even Yuen Kay San.

[reneritchie]

This is what Sum Nung sigung told me personally:

Cheung Bo only had San Sik, numerous San Sik. Yuen Kay-San had San Sik and Kuen To (Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc.)

When Sum Nung began teaching, he had a number of students who needed to learn to fight quickly, so Sum Nung organized San Sik from both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay-San into the Sup Yee Sik. Some were from Cheung Bo, some from Yuen Kay-San, some were common to both, though each had their own way of doing it.

Yuen Kay-San himself integrated Fung Siu-Ching's close range San Sik into the longer bridge system he learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. It sounds like Yuen sijo was interested primarily in results, and was open minded enough to seek out teachers who could fill what he felt were gaps in his skills. Sigung kept improving his system right into his latter days. He was an applicant in the truest sense of the word.

As to the original question, you can open the San Sik the same way you open the Kuen To. The set number of reps is 'as many as you can with improving quality to each'. If you start to get sloppy, stop or switch and come back when you are mentally focused again. (Bad reps can be worse than no reps).

Rene/Montreal (Sum Nung > Ngo Lui-Kay > Me)

[Firehawk4]

What about Cheung Bo s San Sik coming from White Crane is this true ? Is there any comparison that we can tell between Cheung Bo s San Sik and Fukien White Crane ?

[reneritchie]

Cheung Bo learned from Wai Yuk-Sang, who learned from a student of Fung Siu-Ching named Ngau Si. You can find them in the Wing Chun Archive's Biographies Section

There are some things to suggest that the Weng Chun Kuen descended from Fujian Weng Chun White Crane, which was originally more San Sik in nature.

[stonecrusher69]

When you say san sik is that the same as san sao?or is there a difference?

[reneritchie]

San Sik = "Free Forms"
San Sao = "Free Hands"
San Da = "Free Hitting"

San Sao is often used interchangeably with both San Sik and San Da, but for that very reason, isn't as clear when out of context.

San Sik are like *very* short forms. They can be so short as to be just one technique (e.g. Tan Da could be a San Sik), or a combination of a few movements like a section from Siu Lien Tao or the Muk Yan Jong.

San Sik systems don't have the longer routines (Kuen To) like Siu Lien Tao, but instead have a set, just as formalized and progressive, of much, much shorter San Sik

[taichi4eva]

My sino-vietnamese is not good enough to read this. I got this off a Hong Kong forum. The thread is about the san sik.

十二散手....的確冇一招叫白鶴擒狐
依次係
1.日字衝捶 --------------->2.偏身衝捶

3.上攔手------------------------->下攔手

5.外廉手-------------------------->6.內廉手

7.外攤掌----------------------->8.內攤掌

9.外(立)手------------------------->10.內(立)手

11.三品掌------------------------>12.圈手
但係外(立)手同內(立)手因為動作一樣...只是內外門的分別..所以有d師傅會成(立)手個.,,,, 將獨龍捶.....放係第12....
你說的會否是(立)手呢....可能名稱有別

Can anyone translate this? From what I can read, there are only three techniques that are common to the YKS wing chun listed here- the sun shaped fist, side body punch, and triangle palms. All the other techniques are different- huen sau, lop sau, etc.

[taichi4eva]

I'm sorry for all the smilies...I swear I did not do that

[CFT]

Unfortunately the smilies do get in the way - probably some kind of unicode problem.

Rough translation, done v. fast:

[In] 12 "free hands" (san shou) ... there is definitely not a single set called "White Crane seizes the Fox". According to categorisation:

1. Sun-character thrusting punch
2. Side body thrusting punch
3. Upper barring arm (laan sau)
4. Lower barring arm (laan sau)
5. Outer sickle hand (spelling mistake for sickle character? Should have the gold-character radical I think)
6. Inner sickle hand
7. Outer taan sau
8. Inner taan sau
9. Obliterated by coding error
10. Obliterated by coding error
11. Three Product Palm ("bun" usually means product, or grade. Google returned a page which described this as representing qualities of paak-da, gaan-da and taan-da)
12. Huen sau

Next couple of lines are again spolit.

Something about the inner and outer hands having the same action, but with inner and outer gate difference, so some sifu would ,,,,,
take the single dragon punch and put it at number 12.

What you say could be xxxxx .... possibly just a different term.