San Sik

[taichi4eva]

The ones that were obliterated...I went back to the page...in sino vietnamese it's pronounced "lap" meaning to stand. I think in cantonese the whole term is "lap sau"

How can the tan sau be used on the inside and outside? How about the sickle hand and lap sau?

[stycx]

Didn't know if this is the best plae to start but thought I'd jump in anyway.


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I am a disabled man Spina Bifida (L4L5 for the technically minded).

Briefly, I am a man on crutches who, looking for an effective fighting style,
chose wing chun for its excellence but also I liked the square facing (I have no balance side-on) the ambidexterity and the fact that my legs kinda naturally fall into the YCKYM stance ( I call it the you can kiss your mother to remember it) when I stand without my crutches
I think I believe in the WSL which I experienced in Sydney, Australia.

The help I need is as follows:-
1. Can I generate the right kind of power if
a) my hip tortion is not great though I can kind of shunt it forward with the strike a little BECAUSE
2. I can not step, not once, not even a little bit. On the upside I think that my "over-rootedness" helps ( I have learned to balance very well in the forty years+ I've used crutches).
3. One last "advantage" I perceive is my inability to initate attack. Instead I am counting on my adversary doing the closing/bridge building for both of us but this raises the problem of acquiring the centreline on the opponent while not being able to turn as fast as they may.

I used to attend classes but my needs don't fit well into a group situation
and in any casev i cannot adopt the whole system, so I would say I try to cultivate as many WC attributes as I can based on the SLT ( even my chi sao experience is limited

Thank you for any assistance you feel able to offer.

One final query: would the San Sik of any WC/VT lineage be useful to me?

Cheers
Stycx

[reneritchie]

The sickle hand is another name of the Dap/Joining hand. Tan can be done inside or outside, a pointed roof sheds rain both ways.

Many of those are similar to Sum Nung's SYS, others not.

Stycx, what you need is a very, very good teacher who can tailor the material to suit your individual specialized needs, and work with you in whatever manner you need to achieve those skills.

Martial arts and teacher are separate abilities and need to be developed specifically. What any individual technique may or may not suit you will only be determined by how good a teacher you find (assuming you work as hard as it sounds like you will

[taichi4eva]

What I am wondering is the delivery of the Tan Sau different if it's inside or outside? Basically, the arm is out and the palm is slightly curved out. So would it look different?

I have read your book, Mr. Ritchie, and I think it's great. A student of Tom Wong is training me, and there are slight differences between what I am being taught and what is displayed in your book. I thought perhaps you could explain the solo practice of inside join/ outside join with more details. For me, the pictures and the description are hard to follow. Also, my teacher does not use any stance changes.

[Edmund]

What I am wondering is the delivery of the Tan Sau different if it's inside or outside? Basically, the arm is out and the palm is slightly curved out. So would it look different?

Perceptive question. I'd say yes, it looks different. With the tan sau on the outside the need to turn the palm out is less.

[KPM]

Hi Styzx!

I am a disabled man Spina Bifida (L4L5 for the technically minded).

--If your level is L4/L5, then I will assume that your strength around the hips is reasonably intact.

my legs kinda naturally fall into the YCKYM stance ( I call it the you can kiss your mother to remember it) when I stand without my crutches

---Yes. Again...I have to make assumptions here....I would bet you have a some spasticity that actually helps with rooting and stability in the YGKYM. Unfortunately, that same spasticity likely limits your mobility.

The help I need is as follows:-
1. Can I generate the right kind of power if
a) my hip tortion is not great though I can kind of shunt it forward with the strike a little

---Using your hip function will be key for you. Do a search for my posts in the past on "short power" and on the "wave" action. Power generation can be initiated at the tan tien and conveyed by the hips (this is called using the Kua). This is transmitted up the spine as a "wave" or a "whipping" action, can be accentuated by using the shoulders, and is finally expressed thru the arms to the hands. Picture your lower body as the wooden handle of a whip that remains relatively stationary....your Kua/hips as the area where the handle meets the leather portion of the whip....your torso, shoulders and upper arms as the body of the whip itself....and your forearms/hands as the "popper" at the tip of the whip.
You can also use this type of mechanics to "angle" to your opponent even if you do not do a full pivot.

I try to cultivate as many WC attributes as I can based on the SLT

---Nothing wrong with that, given that SLT is the core of the system!

( even my chi sao experience is limited

---Not sure why that should be, given that the majority of chi sau in the Yip Man system is done square on to your partner.


Thank you for any assistance you feel able to offer.

---As Rene pointed out, it will be very important for you to find an instructor that is willing to work directly with you to learn your abilities and limitations and then "customize" the WCK system for you as an individual. But you are on the right track. I agree, that for someone in your situation WCK is an excellent choice as a martial art to study.

One final query: would the San Sik of any WC/VT lineage be useful to me?

---Absolutely! Many of the initial San Sik are done standing in YGKYM without footwork. Then there are two-man drills that compliment what they teach. Be creative. Make your own San Sik to practice based on techniques from SLT adapted to your own abilities. If you can't find a good instructor to work with you, at least find a willing training partner and work with what you do know to "functionalize" it for yourself.

Hope that helps

Keith

[reneritchie]

taichi4eva,

Please, just Rene is fine

The way I learned, inside and outside Tan Sao in terms of SYS look the same, absent a partner to give them context, you would probably have difficulty telling one from the other. There are other hands which look similar with slight differences, like Tun Sao. If you're training Sum Nung's system, you'll get through all of them.

The Chinese have a great expression: big same small different. Having been lucky enough to train with Sigung and meet some of the my sibaksuk, even though none of them are (or could ever be) exact clones, I can his reflection and his amazing attention to detail in all of them.

The book is just a frozen snap-shot of my understanding and ability to communicate at the time, and all responsibility for errors is mine for those very reason. If it leads people to train with any of Sum Nung's students or grandstudents, where they can get the direct, one-on-one attention, then that's all I can hope for.

Regards to the family out west (and below the equator, Ed

[taichi4eva]

I'm a college student so I thought I would be respectful...

Thank you for your response.

[Edmund]

Regards to the family out west (and below the equator, Ed

Due to the international timeline, I consider myself in the Far East (and Far South)

My reasoning on the outside tan sao is that since the contact is going to be on the inside of your arm, it's not as important to turn the palm out if you get my drift.

[reneritchie]

I can catch how the Ed is drifting

[wongjunlam]

Something that has not been addressed, or I might have over looked. is The person originally asking this question was asking about the San Sik. This could of course be as everybody was saying the Sahp Yih Sik. But after Byu Ji, and before the Wooden Dummy there is another San Sik section which contains over (counting in head) 30 different San Sik techniques.

as to answer the original question about whether you could pratice them as a form. There is no real reason why not, just tack on the normal way to open the horse in the forms. But What benifits would it give you? Personally I prefer to run through them one at a time with a minimum of 100 reps for each.

WJL

[reneritchie]

But after Byu Ji, and before the Wooden Dummy there is another San Sik section which contains over (counting in head) 30 different San Sik techniques.

Do you mean Hong Jong (dummy form done in the air?) Otherwise, there's no other formal San Sik extent in Sum Nung's teachings, but it may be something some of his students do. Many of his students went their own way both during and after his life, and you can find all sorts of extra sets some of them developed (some very good ones too).

You can find 108 rattan ring sets, chaotic steps sets, different types of dummies, and a variety of other stuff.

[kung fu fighter]

Yuen Kay-San himself integrated Fung Siu-Ching's close range San Sik into the longer bridge system he learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. It sounds like Yuen sijo was interested primarily in results, and was open minded enough to seek out teachers who could fill what he felt were gaps in his skills. Sigung kept improving his system right into his latter days. He was an applicant in the truest sense of the word.

Hi Rene,
What's your defination of the longer bridge system of wing chun that YKS learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. Can you give us some examples of this and how it works.
What's the difference between long bridge and short bridge wing chun in terms of generating power with the bridges and footwork?

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

[reneritchie]

Long Bride = what you see in Leung Jan/Yip Man punching, kicking
Close Body = what you see in Chi Sim standing grappling

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Rene,
So what you are saying is short range in at the shoulder range and long range is at the elbow and wrist ranges. Short range is more for standup grappling throws/chi na and long range is more for striking.