anyone have kids kung fu classes?

[TenTigers]

When I first started teaching, I also used cross over uniform tops as opposed to frog buttons. My reasoning was, one-the cross over tops are a heckuva lot more durable, and we like to grab. two-our art was developed by Ming loyalists, and the frog button tops are maderin style(ching), whereas the crossover style was pre-ching, hence, Ming. Boy, did I get flak from the so-called traditionalists, as if they could judge the effectiveness of my teachings by what uniform I wore-da noive! However, I did change, and only because my students really liked the frog button tops-(they're just so much more Kung-Fu-ish!") My Sifu told me, "Give them what they think they want, while you give them what they need" I like to make my students happy-within reason. And if a little thing like that adds to their enjoyment of CMA, then fine. Whatever floats yer boat. We end up practicing more in t-shirts, when all is said and done. Go figure.
Well, as it turns out, I found a good company-Superior, that can make more durable frog button uniforms, so now we are both happy. Yea!
Bottom line-as Sifu Parella stated, you can be wearing a clown suit, and it wouldn't change the effectiveness of the teachings.
There are alot of things that Chinese Martial Arts instructors can learn from Karate schools. They have been teaching to the public alot longer than we have and it is better to learn from those that are making it work, rather than floundering on tyour own. Some examples of this are,;
more regimented classes, high energy drills, a well thought out curriculum with a ranking structure, periodic testing, uniforms.
If you look at the successful Karate schools, such as JKA, you will see across the board a high standard of excellence. If you take this a step further, and look at successful Martial Arts schools that are making it on a large scale, such as Steve LaValle,Tiger Shullman, Kovar's Karate, Ernie Reyes, Buzz Durkin's Uechi Karate-Do, you will see quality, and professionalism. It's time that we, as CMA instructors stop holding ourselves back with our delusion that Sifus are supposed to be these starving artists. I have trained over thirty years in the Martial Arts. I think I deserve to get paid for my efforts as well. Don't you? Or do you not value yourself as a teacher, as a person? What is your worth? What is the worth of your teachings, or the time and effort you as a teacher put into your students?

[wind draft]

you said Give them what they think they want, while you give them what they need"

that makes a lot of sense.

I'm sorry for my irrationale statement, I said some harsh stuff because I felt like Sifu Parella was putting down on my Sifu's school and I wasn't gonna let that happen. I just thought that everyone could be more friendly instead of open attack.

Again I apologize for my previous statement.

[KickingMantis]

Some nice advice to teachers, instructors and other sifus who plan to open a school to teach martial arts commericially in todays society. A lot of Chinese Martial Arts teachers and instructors are too busy trying to be like "36 chambers of Death" inside of operating a well run school. Traditional doesnt mean act like the shaolin temple it means a martial arts school that is organized, structured and disciplined. From the time you enter to the time you leave. The way students put their weapons away to the way they are dismissed should be done orderly.

[Royal Dragon]

FIRST!!!

I taught Kids Karate from 1995 to roughly 1999 for Champion Youth Outreach programs AND from about 1997 to 2002 I also ran the Royal Dragon's Kids Kung Fu club.

At Champion Youth I have set company attendance records (100% one session infact), AND in the little competitons we held (30 locations attending, 35 to 75 students each loction attending, 3 locations were mine) my students dominated, despite me not having a Black belt (infact nothing higher than the 3rd rank in any style at first, and NO significant official rank in anything even today). Many times My Kids were 1st second and 3rd place in forms, and point sparring. One session we SHUT OUT ALL OTHER COMPETITORS, in ALL DIVISIONS for 1st 2nd 3rd place forms, and darn near did it in sparring that year too, so i know what I'm talking about when it comes to teaching kids (If I know nothing else).

First off, I recomend 1 hour classes as opposed to the 45 minutes most Kids classes are. Kids can be pushed harder than you think, and often you can train them harder than adults because they just don't know they are working hard, especially if you make it play. You have to ease into it though, too mush too fast scares them.

Basically I created a simple, but sound curriculem. It was standardised and the students were told what needed to be done to pass rank tests. Because Kids have shorter attention spans (in theory, more on that later though)I would try not to do any one thing for more than 10 minutes at a time. For example, I'd break the warmup into segments. First was "Get the blood moving" types of exercises, We'd run around the room 3 times, followed by standard Kung Fu warmups such as arm rotations Windmills etc.. Then we'd do some running in place "Kung Fu style". I actually stole the exercise from OYD, because it's good to develop range of motion for stop kicks, but I never told them that, we just did it for fun. I made it a silly event and tried to get them all giggling. When they were laughing too much to continue we stopped and moved on the the next exercise.

Once I got thier blood moving good, we did a series of basic stretches, and that was often followed by Shaolin looking drills I called "Animal Exercises". These were little drills common to many Shaolin schools i just gave "Animal" names to based on what they looked like at the time (Elephant walks, Froggies etc...) It was great fun, and good conditioning. I allways did them WITH my students (LOL parents allways lauged at me though!!!). This should kill 20 minutes or so.

I followed this with practicing the form for thier level, Wu Bu Chuan for level one, Shaolin Louhan for level 2 etc... Each level had to learn 6 of the basic 18 Shaolin self defense techniques, and some sort of application from thier forms. Occasionally I taught an app from the form, and then used one of the 18 techniques to defend against it, and also the reverse.

When I was teaching multiple classes a week, I had "Theme" classes. For example, Monday's class would be Stance holding, and every thing revolved around that. Wednessday was for the moving form, Friday was heavy on applications etc...

Every class ended with stretching where I would allways say "Stetching is a Sleeeeeepy exercise" as I pretended to nod off in front of them.

I Geared it so we tested every 12 weeks for the first 3 levels, and then testing was by "invitation only". When I had a child who was at level 3, I NEVER tested them the next time everyone else tested. Instead in the weeks precceding, I explained over and over again that getting to level 4 took a LONG time, and they shouldn't expect to test for a while. BUT, I allways involved them in helping me test thier juniors, and made it clear they were seniors, and i needed them. At first I was reluctant to do this, but I found I couldn't empart entire levels of skill in just 12 weeks after a certain point. In the end though it turned out to be the best thing as the higher ranks started to show a marked loyalty to the club, and thier practice.

Skill wise, when we competed, even though it was only point sparring my kids were excellent fighters. They had exceptional footwork compare to the rest of the program (remember, 30 locations, 35 to 75 kids each locaton, several over 90). Thier hand eye coodrdination was excellent, and thier ability to take thier opponents root by jambing them up and then countering was nothing short of amazing when compared to the rest of the program.

When my Kids entered the tounament, you could SEE by the way they walked they were the only ones there that knew anything!! (God that was good for my ego!!) I site the fact that we did ALOT of basics, and drilled the same fundemental techniques over and over in alot of different senarios, often made up by me on the spot. I made the emphisis not on how much they learned, but how PRECISE they learned it!! (Actuall broke precision into levels too, so they could note thier progress).

At the more advanced levels, I had 8,9 and 10 yearolds spotting flaws in our "Traditonal" twoman set, and self correcting it (Which I encouraged) This taught me to feed them mistakes, and when one figures it out, make a big deal about thinking on thier own, and rewarding them for it. It actually encouraged all of them to think about the "Why's", and not just copy what I told them. It was really cool to see 8,9 and 10 yearolds actually figuring this stuff out, and understanding more than some adult Black belts at my competitor's TKD school.

Our twoman set eventually became the launching pad for free sparring. When a student would see one of the "Holes" in it, and develop thier own way to counter it, I would talk to the opposeng student and say"Now, he did something different here, look at all the techniques you know, and figure out how to defend against That"! This often lead to the on the spot creation of new two man sets which were developed, played with and quickly forgotten because the nextime we did the Traditional set, they would expliot the holes in a differnt manor. I know it's not the "Traditional" way a two man set is taught in modern times, but it created *KIDS!* who were thinking fighters, and GREATLY outclased almost the entire program. A Hung Gar Sifu by the name of Jesse Penna was the only one producing students that gave us any trouble...and we still beat them.

To put it simply, Keep it simple, empart the WHY'S of what they are doing, and once they get to the point where they are seeing errors that don't jive in the two man practice, begin free sparring and experimantation. Be strict, and harsh when needed, but REWARD them when they do good. I often pushed them almost to the crying point holding postures, but when we were done I allways acted shocked that they did that good, in such a hard lesson. I allways told them i was so proud of them, and I never expected in a million years that kids could do so well in such a tough class. Then I'd say I doubt any other kids your age would be strong enough to survive THAT class!!! This just boosted thier self estemes like nothing else!!

Anyway, I hope patting my own back, and showing off some of my successes has helped answer some of your questions.

RD

[wind draft]

Thank you Royal Dragon and Sifu Parella for your input! I now understand what you were trying to say.

To be a successful school there are things you need to do. Our school is organized, has a circulum, and we have students over 10 years training at the same school.

I do like the testing thing, its makes it more encouraging for the students. Sifu Parella, I thought you were critizing me before, but now I understand you were just explaining how a SUCCESSFUL school should run.

I again apologize for my ignorant statement previously.

[g0pher]

Weed out the weak? Are YOU kidding? Where and who did you guys learn from? Maybe good martial artists, but I will say NOT good Instructors!

How do you measure a teachers value? Hmmm..

BY THE NUMBER OF SUCCESSFUL STUDENTS! HOW ELSE? BY ACTUALLY GETTING YOUR STUDENTS TO PROGRESS! TO GET BETTER. NOT TO QUIT!

It is an instructor's responsibility to teach students, not to make them quit. I'm sure if all of our grade and high school teachers used this method, we'd be pumping gas our whole life and using pictures on cave walls to communicate.

I have owned and operated successful schools since 1991. I started a CMA business thread. Maybe you guys should start getting involved.

The man said he was asked to take over and teach the kids some kung fu. I was going by the assumption that it was a free service to the community, and that he was not some zen master who operates multiple schools and has a user name with "Sifu" in it on an internet forum. No one is a master. And stance training in the east is how traditional training is done. If you are going to train why not do it the traditional way? This way of training would have only helped him to not waste his time with kids who get bored of every extracurricular activity that comes their way, and would have allowed him to focus on children that are serious about their training...

And it is not the instructor's responsibility to ensure the student does not quit. The instructor shows a path. The student chooses how far he or she wants to go. Such coddling only let's the student think they are the responsibility of someone else. Formal education is public expenditure. Do not confuse the two.

And as far as questioning my teacher... I learn from the 3 time NBL world champ who has operated his studio for almost 20 years. You are apparently in New York. I am in Philadelphia. If you have any questions feel free to come in and watch the best teach. Seven Mountain Spirit Fist Kung Fu. All you have to do is google it.

And shame on you for disrespecting who I learn from without knowing anything about me.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Wind,

Didn't mean to beat you up about your teaching! I just get flamed up about people who open up schools without the proper training. NOT proper MA training, proper teaching and business skills. People who are not professionally trained or educated in MA school business hurt the industry.

There is also a lot more than just the kicking and punching aspects of CMA to consider when teaching or taking on students. We all know that part of the word SIFU means 'father'. The responsibility of an Instructor/Sifu/Si-Hing is to guide a student along the 'path'. Not just to teach hand/weapon forms and two-man sets/sparring. There is a lot more to offer throught the teachings of CMA. That is why some schools make a great income and some don't. It's not just because they know how to run a business better. Most unprofessional school owners chalk up thier lack of sucess to the fact that they are a traditional school. That's the biggest load of crap ever. Most people don't understand two things; A Traditional school - a tradition is a method or system passed down from one gereration to the next. And, if we want to equate tradition to being the best way, the Chinese martial arts tradition is - ADAPT!! Teaching methods are not what martial arts is about, Quality is what CMA is about. If you could motivate students to learn better, stay longer and set goals for the MA future, then I'd say you were a traditionalist. Just because an old method of motivation is taught in modern times, doesn't mean it's traditional. In fact, that theory alone, doing something that doesn't get results in UNTRADITIONAL!

Again, sorry for giving you or anyone else a hard time in this forum. Not my real intention.

Oh, and as far as what forms or video clips I post on my website, thanks for the compliment! If you put a bunch of things on your site that are ridiculous or super advanced, you'll just be showing most people all the things 'they'll never be able to do' and they'll look instead for a place they can actually learn something. If you don't think this is true, why is it we have so many schools! If people are motivated to only train with the most impressive and best instructors, how can you explain the fact that there is a martial arts school on every corner? Wouldn't everyone just gravitate to the best guy within, say....50 miles? Surely everyone can't be equal in skill, right? Just something to think about.

And Gopher,

Who's criticizing your instructor? The statements are based on what I think a professional instructor is. I don't care if you or your teacher train for 2 or 200 years. If you can't measure your results as an instructor, how do you determine if you are good or not? I'm sure if you ask anyone how to evaluate or measure a pro athelet's value or performance, he'll tell you 'STATS' The whole purpose of my postings is to get people to realize that your goal of teaching is more than makeing classes longer and getting students discouraged.

Oh, buy the way, I just looked at your website and I have seen your instructor before. I was a judge in division he competed in NY back in 1990 I believe. Is that some kind of Vietamese art? What's with all the Chinese stuff then? I judged one of his forms and it did NOT look Chinese at all. Here is the website if you or anyone else would like to see the the link WEBSITE I've already seen a bit of what you guys do.

Which is the better instuctor? A guy who says; "I've been teaching for 14 years and I've only produced 3 black belts. Most people don't have the discipline to stick it out. We have very high standards." Or the guy who says: "I've been teaching for 14 years and we've produced 130 blackbelts. I'm hoping to see many of those students go on to 2 and 3rd degrees as well."

Just things to think about....

And if anyone else has had a bit of 'sesitivity cereal' for breakfast today, allow me to share something about myself; Those of you who know me personally and have either trained under me or worked out with me...well, you know the deal. I have been a dedicated student for over 25 years, was a diciple of the late Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, and I take my art and my business very seriously. I rarely criticize other people for thier abilities. No one is the same and not everyone had the opportunity to learn from someone like my Sifu. That being said, I think all martial arts are good. I think there can be something to learn from everyone. I also think that being a 'typing tough guy' on the internet is ridiculous and thinly veiled challenges are a joke. I am not a suttle person. If I am insulting you, I will make it clear, that that is my intention. Don't get oversensative when you read about my opinions through a rant. We're all martial arts brothers an sisters.

Best of luck to everyone.

[Royal Dragon]

Lama Pai Sifu,
First, I like what you have to say in many respects, however I feel you seem to believe that an MA teacher should be professionally trained to teach, and I would like to respectfully dissargee with that. I have never been "Taught" how to teach. Yes, I would observe other's teaching methods at times, and incorperate them into my own methods, but ultimately my success as a teacher comes from pure natural ability (I can actually teach this stuff far better than do it). There have been times where I was side by side with a 25 year veteran instructor, LEARNED what he was teaching in the class, and out taught him having learned the material only minutes before. Some people just have that gift to teach, it's as natural to them as eating lunch. If they wish to go pro, I say more power to them!


Most unprofessional school owners chalk up thier lack of sucess to the fact that they are a traditional school. That's the biggest load of crap ever

Reply]
I agree completely. If this was true, then hard core gymnastics clubs who train 4-5 days a week, @ 3,4 an 5 hours at a time would not exist either, yet every community has one. The truth of the matter, is it's NOT the material being passed, or even how "Watered Down" it is, it's the teacher's ability to PASS that knowledge, and build skill in thier students. The "Traditional" attitude kills more schools than anything they do or teach. it's that same attitude of "It's up to the student to tough it out and not quit" that makes students feel they don't have the exceptional natural ability needed to make it in the program. Rather than face certian failure, they leave before they lose face. The teaching method actually drives students away, limits the number of people who could eventually become teachers in the future, and makes MA's look like some sort of cult.

I have found that if you give a student what they can handle, and don't place any expectations on them that are beyond thier ability, they develop quite nicely, and soon their ability grows, and grows. In time, someone who would have "Quit" a "Traditional" program originally, can now outshine a traditional student in all ranges...and do it with a smile on thier face, and a laugh in thier heart.

I remember taking my kids to comps when I was teaching for Champion Youth. We had one instructor who was very stern, and his kids did have alot of skill compared to the norm. I over heard one parent one time consoling thier child because he was afraid to fight an opponent from that location because they "Looked" so tough (all the students had that same "Stern look" as the teacher). As luck would have it, one of my students got paired up with him [stern kid] instead. It was a girl by the name of Rebecca. She was smaller than her opponent. She walked into the ring all sweet and nice like, smiling and happy as i stood thier next to the kid and parent that were scared, watching my student. The Kid looked at Rebecca and I over heard him make a comment that she was going to get creamed. To his amzement she won the match, with ease, never broke a sweat, never stopped smiling, and really seemed to enjoy herself. Ultimately, isn't this what we want? Are we here to punish our students, or help them seek the development they desire, and need?

Rebecca btw would have quit a traditonal program. She needed an enjoyable enviroment to succeed. Performance wise, she could do everything a traditonal student of her experiance. Ultimately she was TAUGHT well, but the "Attitude" of a "So called" traditional teacher was never present...I made sure of that...because I believe it does more harm than good.

>>And it is not the instructor's responsibility to ensure the student does not quit.

Reply]
It is if he wants a succsesful school with a good reputaion, and enough income to pay his bills and take his wife out for dinner every once and a while!

>>The instructor shows a path. The student chooses how far he or she wants to go.

Reply]
Yes, but it is also the instrcutor's job to help the student see how far they CAN go down that path, and help motivate him to do so.

>>Such coddling only let's the student think they are the responsibility of someone else.

Reply]
No, not so. FIRST it's not "Coddling", it's motivateing in a positive manor. My students never thought they were the responsibilty of anyone but themselves. But I didn't have to teach harshly, or make them feel like they had greater responsibilities than they did either. The "Traditional" attitude as commonly seen in this country just makes students feel like they have to push way harder than they are capable of, it beats them down and makes them feel inferior, and in the end it drives most student out of your school. Again, it's not "What", or "how" you are teaching, it's the attitude you have when you teach that counts in this case.

>>Formal education is public expenditure. Do not confuse the two.

Reply]
I don't even know what you mean by this...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Royal Dragon, good post.

What I mean, regarding being taught how to teach: I think that there are many MA instructors, that become instructors becuase of that inate ability to communicate aspects of the MA. They are naturally good at it. However, in today's society and to run a business teaching MA, I believe you should seek out the advice and experience of a successful instructor. Not to network, or learn from a Instructor who teaches hundreds of people successfully, (if that's your goal) is a negligence on an instructors part. That is what I believe.

Instructors should have a comprehensive curriculum which takes a student through so many levels, and as Stephen Covey says, 'should begin with the end in mind'. What you teach and how you teach it should be well thought out. Just because someone is profficient in CMA, doesn't mean they are good at teaching it. Just as well, because you can teach someone a sidekick or a form which wins them a tournament, such things are not the true measure of an instructor. There is a much larger picture here for those of us who can step back and see it.

Again, I mean no disrespect for anyone here, just sharing my opinion.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Oh, and just a bit on uniforms.

We used to use black crossover uniforms years ago. The reason: The few companies that made frog-button uniforms at the time kept running out of stock and were completely unreliable. We didn't have a choice.

Now, we have three uniforms: White cross-over for basic class. Students who train in Black Belt Club (can happen within a month) get a black top with white frogs. Student who train in Masters Club get a Red top, black frogs and black pants. This creates visable distinctions about the different levels of training which students are involved in.

On a personal note: I do not like the white cross-overs that we use. I was using white tops with black buttons up until 18 months ago. The company I use, although I like their uniforms quality, charges way too much and still cannot keep up with the volume I order for New Student Uniforms (white). I would have students enrolled for 3 weeks without a uniform. I just didn't work.

[tanglang69]

In regards to the decorum of the school. It is totally Tiger Schulman. Just like my old sifu's schools down here in Texas.

Hi Sifu Parrella, don't know if you remember me. My name is Oved Zamora. I used to be Pablo's right hand until I left to pursue my career with federal law enforcement.

PM me if you get a chance. Would love to ask you some questions.

Sincerely,

tanglang69

[wind draft]

Wow!! I'm starting to understand what ya'll are talking about when refering to "professionalism."

I don't know.. I guess my Sifu is not professionalism then. But I do believe that he's a really good Sifu, and that he has a very high moral ethic.

I notice some of your schools do like some kind of month program. How does this work? Does it give the student or client an understanding of what they are getting for what they're paying? Like in 6 months they should be here if they came to class everyday? That kind of thing?

I guess my Sifu just have a different way of teaching. I actually kind of like both ways. We have a circulum in our style but you'r not tested, no belt ranks, and you're not expect to meet some kind of demand. Because class is run out of the community center so we are short on time, don't have much time to do things, only 2 days a week 2 hours each. Not much, but I think my Sifu has more of a self development idea. He teach you accordingly to your skills and it's up to you to how good you want to be.

On a good class day we have about 20 students but about 15 of them have been around for more than 5 years. My Sifu I think have more of a personal relation with the student versus just instructor.

My knowledge is only limited, so if anyone see's a critique in his ways of teaching please bring it up in a NICE way.

The hardest thing for me to understand is how can I or anyone else, break up the training methods accordingly to the level or belt ranking. I think this is a good idea of teaching. It gives them a gauging measure of where they are in their training and what's need to get to the next level, and maybe it's an encouragment for the student to get better.

Thank you!