Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: moving back on a 45 degree angle

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    13

    moving back on a 45 degree angle

    Hey everyone-

    I wanted to get some thoughts on footwork and moving. I've seen and heard lots of different ways to move within the wing chun system(always straight ahead, ahead at an angle, or even side-stepping, t-stepping etc etc.) I'm sure there are others as well. I've been fortunate enough to study under different teachers from different lineages and they all have different perspectives on foot work. My question as the title of the thread implies is this:

    Does anyone here train to move back on a 45 degree angle from a front stance? If so, what do you think of it? I worked with a guy who showed me this and have started to use it a lot in my training. His training and footwork is some of the most mobile I've seen so far in wing chun, and he's very quick and light on his feet. It's seemed to help me immensely and I wanted to get other's thoughts on this. I was just finding before that if you always moved in, whether straight or at an angle I would get clobbered by good boxers(I must say these were good boxers albeit.) I've been taught and heard the phrase "Never step back in wing chun" and I'd be very interested in hearing all opinions on this-

    Peace all-

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Miami,Fl
    Posts
    79
    in our system we use the 45' degree in order to get off the line of attack.
    it is very effective.By moving at a 45'degree it allows for opening,timing,and distancing try it both defence and offense.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Southwest Idaho
    Posts
    488
    Quote Originally Posted by eadragon21
    Does anyone here train to move back on a 45 degree angle from a front stance? If so, what do you think of it? I worked with a guy who showed me this and have started to use it a lot in my training. His training and footwork is some of the most mobile I've seen so far in wing chun, and he's very quick and light on his feet. It's seemed to help me immensely and I wanted to get other's thoughts on this.
    Andrew S. and I learned this from Leung Ting at the "WT Millenium Seminar" in Los Angeles 2000. It comes from the WT double knife set. -I think it's cool because the hip pivot from the turn allows you to still generate power even though you are moving back (relatively). -This type of stepping actually makes more sense to me than most of the rest of the WT system footwork does.

    If you want to see how WT guys do this technique in the knife form, go to Sergio's IWKA website and check out the videos there. You will see this footwork performed with the knives in two different clips.

    Quote Originally Posted by eadragon21
    I was just finding before that if you always moved in, whether straight or at an angle I would get clobbered by good boxers(I must say these were good boxers albeit.)
    No matter how much "super secret wing chun footwork" that anyone learns, a good boxer is going to be a handful.......

    Quote Originally Posted by eadragon21
    I've been taught and heard the phrase "Never step back in wing chun" and I'd be very interested in hearing all opinions on this-
    Most WT "masters" (Kernspecht, etc.) repeat this sort of motto to beginners and intermediates, -but not to higher level technicians. In fact, if you watch their footwork when they are moving "naturally" (i.e.- not "demonstrating" a particular technique to an audience), they will move nothing like what how tell less experienced WT people to move. -Not that they have footwork secrets worth paying thousands of dollars to learn, but they have a general idea of what is effective and begin moving in a more organic, and less robotic way.

    -Lawrence
    I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums. -Andrew S

    A good instructor encourages his students to question things, think for themselves and determine their own solutions to problems. They give advice, rather than acting as a vehicle for the transmission of dogma.
    -Andrew Nerlich

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    1,386
    lawrence-

    I believe, and this could be my lineage only, that the foot work you refer to from the butterfly knives is actually borrowed from lost trak. You can advance and you can retreat, however in wing chun mindset you are not retreating you are still occupying space. In biu jee you learn a movement when someone over powers you, its a roll back and hook (called ginger fist sometimes). Sometimes you might have to step back, sometimes you might have to completely side step, and sometimes a V step is all you need to completely flank your opponet. Good post btw.

    A good principle I learned is throwing the hands, i learned his in biu jee and apply it to my chum kiu now as well. The feet move as a symptom of the body moving, and the hands can lead the body in all one movement. The opposite can be said about stepping back, the feet move the body and the body moves the hands all in one motions, that is how you can generate power as well when having to step back.

    A good way to practice this is do triangle foot work outside or in a big open space. After going so far advancing you stay in place and retreat back to where you started. Always punching with your movements and remembering the principles of how the hands can be used to move the body and the body can be used to move the hands.

    The thing about boxers is they can rob your foot work by using light footed no root stance, which offers a quick sudden movement opportunity when your opponet gives it to you. You simply overstep their foot work. This is common in other martial arts as well, but I learned it from an art that actually uses back weighted stances. Robbing someone's foot work is great for wing chun people, it can put you in a position you completely occupy someone's space and at the same time give you a flanking advantage. Toss in some good balance and possible chin na and you can easily throw them to the ground. Timing of course is essential. You won't be able to rob someone of their foot work if they are really good, you will have to put them in the position where you can rob their foot work. That can be done by baiting or by advancing in angles and letting them move first and acting upon their movement. Its very hard stuff though, but if someone is good at it, its obvious.

    At the Ho Kam Ming reunion we met one of Ho Kam Mings students from maccau and he demonstrated dominating foot work. Someone volunteered against him and he robbed his foot work the whole time. its almost like shadow boxing someone but instead of shadowing them you also dominate the position at the same time. This is very hard to do and would definately require some training.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
    Posts
    1,592

    Why are you moving back?

    Hello,

    There is definetely backwards stepping in WC/WT. However, I would like to point out my take on why we are told not to step backwards.

    One of the big problems which I notice with students who like to step backwards is that they tend to do what I call fade. In other words they are stepping back because they decided to do so, not because they needed to do so. In some cases this is because they lack the confidence or skill to fully take advantage of the idea of stepping 45' off the line forward or step into the attack, although stepping in is not always the answer either

    The important point to me in regards to the concept of stepping back is that it has to be done as a result of your opponents energy not your own intent. If your opponent is too powerful for you to deflect, either because you need more training or he is a monster, then you can and should step back, but only as far as needed to maintain your structure and attack him/her. You should always be on the attack or preparing to attack and the step back is only a tactical method to allow you a better position to continue the attack of your opponent.

    Like anything else stepping back can have its place but it is not the answer to every situation. IMHO, it is adangerous habit to get into, stepping back, too early. I feel your time is better spent on learning to shift and step 45' forward rather than stepping back. IOW's I would say if you have an hour to train footwork spend 30 minutes shifting/turning; 10 minutes stepping directly forward; 15 mintues stepping back and 5 minutes stepping back. But hey that is just my opinion.

    Peace,

    Dave
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Dahlonega, GA USA
    Posts
    1,592

    Thought This Was Applicable

    Quote Originally Posted by nelsonmarcelino
    I believe it is unwise to step back in Wing Chun--whether you step straight back, back at a 45 degree angle, or similar angle tanget. Also the consideration is how you step back and by how much. As a general rule, if you do want to step back, I would say to minimize the distance of stepping back as much as possible. If you do want to get off the line of attack then you can accomplish that with a pivot and triangle footwork pattern to leave the line and to change it and come toward your opponent from the side. Myself, I simply prefer moving straight in.

    The problem with stepping back is that it is counterintuitive to the WC fighting mind set. By stepping back your wedge jamming structure does not work--in fact it works against you. Stepping is introduced in the Chum Kil form. The opening footwork movement employed in the Woo Fai Ching Chum Kil is called tee lee poo. The movement teaches you to land your feet with the heel touching the ground first. Then you learn pivoting trin ma footwork in the turning lansao section. Then there is a half step to the side with your torso unsquared. Then there is toi ma (rat step) moving forward while keeping the torso square while doing double bong sao and tan sao.

    The key point to take away from all these footwork patterns is the concept of "bracing" Bracing uses geometric and biotensegrity structures to affect structural support against incoming force. Now bracing is a very subtle concept. The idea here is to use softness and correct energy application so that the brace doesn't turn into a wrestling match. You must never tense while bracing. Tensing will make it easier for your opponent to feel your intention and use the "tension area" as a fulcrum that can be used to manipulate you.

    Stepping into pressure is something most people are not used to doing. It seems like you are more likely to get hit by doing so. Some claim that the reason for the step back is usually used as a means to GET AWAY from an oncoming strike or lunge from an opponent. I have even heard some say that the step back is used to provide what they call a CRADLING affect. The idea here for example in football is when you try to catch the football you don't run into the ball because then your forward momementum will more likely make you miss the ball and it will bounce away (RICHOCET) upon contact. The step back supposedly lets you receive. The problem with this analogy though is absorbing/cradling an opponent's blow if it does not affect your opponent's structure/balance is a dangerous gamble. You see, the opponent can simply follow up with more blows, at some point you will have to jam his strike; and to wedge his strike or upper limb you will have to step forward. If that is the long term goal then why not do it right from the start?

    Stepping back also results in disengagement. In Chum kil we are seeking to search for the bridge and not to lose it. If your oponent comes towards you then we welcome him. In a sense he is establishing bridge contact for us.

    The step back also diminishes your intercepting ability. Your opponent's vector is coming ahead at you full force Your backward step nullifies the forward deflection ability that you might be applying with arm deflection technique. Example, A pak sao will only be able to be powered by the upper body and arm muscle to provide support. It makes more sense to apply a pak, tan, bong, etc with the forward step.

    Bil jee has less stepping then Chum Kil. You have circle sweeping footwork and half steps to the sides only.
    The Wooden Man trains both sides equally with footwork. But in an actual confrontation you will only take one or two steps.

    You also cannot effectively kick when stepping backward. While stepping forward the kick can land, and turn into a step while you step right INTO your opponent, destabilizing him. You can kick, with force, however, from a pivot and from half side step.

    Stepping back is also dangerous against a grappler. Because your momementum is moving backwards, his foward shoot/lunge simply adds to your momentum
    and you will find yourself taken down more easily.

    IMO, the more you move and step around the more likely you are to get hit. Standing your ground, and stepping only when you have to is the key to success in wing chun.
    I thought the abovre post was applicable to this subject so I copied it to this thread also.

    Peace,

    Dave
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    1,093

    Another Lineage

    We do step back.
    In my VT, though we perscribe to the "counter intuitive" mindset, Also we adhere to a point already mentioned, when we have to....only retreat as much as needed.
    When we step back most often its because of timing and an action is comming so stepping back still maintains a 45 degree turn, letting forces go.

    For what ever reason the need to retreat will arrive, so we have specific stepping practice, this includes stepping foward whilst punching and then stepping backward while punching. Foward is running punch, Backwards is the arrow punch. We train in air, or with focus mits then person to person.

    This can be used from a non touch situation
    -using things like a corner punch whilst moving back, this is not meant only to attack but to gain touch.
    Or from a position where you are in contact with arms.
    -This is some cases if used correctly can move an opponent from the indoor to the outdoor giving an advantage.

    Just a brief example of our way but we do step back at the right time and with purpose.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •