Fukien White Crane Wing Chun ?

[DRleungjan]

If my memory serves me right is not the name Wing Chun named after the training hall that Lei Man Mou practised at the Northern Shaolin Temple befor it was destroyed ? or have I lost the plot ? and getting a bit mixd up.

Yes mufty, memory is a tricky little devil isn't it? Well, let's see. The famous Wing Chun Din was more probably at the southern temple. [More probable would be that this famous hall might have been located at the Honam Temple and it's ideas spread southward to the southern 5 Elders, but that's just speculation on my part. Although I'd prefer to hear what an expert would say on the subject. Actually there was a very well written article by Sal Canzioneri based on the subject at hand.]

It is were, according to a version of Wing Chun lore, the Wing Chun system was originally devised by the Southern Siu Lam elders. Elders such as Jee Sheem, Miu Hin, and Ng Mui might have developed and perfected the different animal techniques and deviced, what I would like to term as, a proto synthesis of what was later to become Wing Chun Kuen. After the burning of the southern temple the system was propagated along the (in)famous Hung Suen or Red Boats. Lei Man Mou was a member of such a troupe. When the rebellion that he pertained to failed and the opera disbanded, the system was spread thoroughout the different regions of southern China. One of it's most famous recipients being the city of Guang Jau or more commonly known as Canton.

I hope I have cleared the waters up a bit.

[mufty]

Yes mufty, memory is a tricky little devil isn't it? Well, let's see. The famous Wing Chun Din was more probably at the southern temple. [More probable would be that this famous hall might have been located at the Honam Temple and it's ideas spread southward to the southern 5 Elders, but that's just speculation on my part. Although I'd prefer to hear what an expert would say on the subject. Actually there was a very well written article by Sal Canzioneri based on the subject at hand.]...........................

Thanks for that 'DRleungjan'

I found some old research that ties in with what your saying.

'It is belived that Abbot Gi Chin taught a fluid agile short ranged style called Waquan (Flower Fist) at the 'Forever Spring hall' in the Fujian Shaloin temple.
Hence the name Wing Chung (Forever Spring).

have you herd this ??

regards Mufty

[DRleungjan]

'It is belived that Abbot Gi Chin taught a fluid agile short ranged style called Waquan (Flower Fist) at the 'Forever Spring hall' in the Fujian Shaloin temple.

Have you heard this??

Hmmm...yes, as a matter of fact if, I am not mistaken, Wong Kiew Kit has stated something to the effect that Fa Kuen (Waquan) was practiced in the Wing Chun Din. He also has stated that there were two main halls in Siu Lam. One was the Hall of Lou Han in which Lou Han Kuen was taught. Lou Han Kuen was considered to be a 'hard' or external art. The other was the 'Wing Chun Din' where Fa Kuen was taught. And like you said Fa Kuen was said to be a 'soft' or internal arts.

But go figure mufty, Ji Sim Sin Si was also credited with being a Siu Lam Tiger style practitioner and to have been especially proficient with staff techniques. Btw, the staff techniques which became the Luk Dim Bun Gwun or 6.5 Point Pole techniques are said to have been derived from Ji Sim through Wong Wa Bou while Ji Sim went into hiding on the Red Boats and taught it's opera troupe members.

[mufty]

DRleungjan Thanks for that it all seems to be comming together???

You know that Tiger and Crane are closley related, but the crane was more easly accesable to to the general public as sivl defense system, during the the occupation of China by the Mancurians? Im old now so not to sure.

I come from an okinawan backround, and understand the link between China and Okinawa, and have been studying Bahi He quan. My teacher says that I look like an Okinawan doing White Crane, but He knows That I have been practicing for over thirty years.

I know the connection between the Shaolin spear fighting and have been practicing Bahi he Gun (white crane sticK) and have realised that the Okinawan Bo kon Kata are are a defence against the spear and staff techniques of the Shaloin quan. We have practised together and have seen the connection between the Okinawan Kobudo kon and the Chinese Bahi he gun.

I am slowly realising the connection, and am begining to understand the connection between the Okinawan Hakatsuru and the Chinese Bahi he (White Crane Techniques) especially Sanjan. Sanjan seems to exist within all schools of martial arts.

Do you practice Sanjan 'DRleungjan'?

What are your stepping methods

and what is your breathing cycle

and what is the centre of tension in your sanjan?

Do you prctice Sanjan ? if so what are your perspectives on this important form/dance

You know I just Love the Martial arts

[DRleungjan]

DRleungjan Thanks for that it all seems to be comming together???

Hey mufty...I hope I'm not confusing you further with x-tra info!

And like it was stated earlier the connection between all of the above is definitely the Fukien Bak Hok Kuen. As a matter of fact there are two styles (that I know of) that carry the Saam Jin within their curriculum. These systems are the Fukien White Crane and the Five Ancestors fist. And yes the Fu-Hok (Tiger and Crane)! ...even Hung Ga Kuen has the famous Tiger-Crane set refined and brought together as a single entity by Wong Fei Hung. As far as Crane being used as a civilian defense system?...I'm stuck on that one also...I don't think I have heard of that, but I'll try to resesearch further.

Do you practice Sanjan 'DRleungjan'?

I don't think that I practice Saam Jin as you know it. What in my observation comes close, if it isn't derived by it, is our moving horse or the Chum Kiu set of the Wing Chun system.

What are your stepping methods

The Chum Kiu as I practice it has angular stepping, foward stepping, and a couple of kicks mixed in. Sorry for my vagueness but I am still learning the form. Maybe one of our more veteran residents here can give us a hand.

and what is your breathing cycle

Breathing is suppossed to be very relaxed and natural. Now the closest I can observe as far as a cycle is concerned would be when executing a technique one breathes outward and upon completion/retreat/transition of technique one breathes in. You would also notice that this little facet in itself can build internal energy...what you might call Ki...or Hei in our lingo.

and what is the centre of tension in your sanjan?

Hmmm...I believe and can say that the Dan Tin or the Navel Region is the center which stablelizes the whole body. Combine this with a proper erect spine and you have a pretty **** good horse!

Do you prctice Sanjan? if so what are your perspectives on this important form/dance?

Indeed...Saam Jin seems to exist ESPECIALLY in many of the southern Gung Fu styles.

To rehash the above. What is Saam Jin? Since my only art is Wing Chun I am looking at your question from a Wing Chun perspective combined with my limited knowledge and recent observations. As matter of fact, the closest I can come across is our Chum Kiu form. If you have the opportunity check a vid clip and the Wing Chun Chum Kiu and compare it with the Bak Hok Saam Jin Kuen (Kata). They are very similar from my observations. An important facet that I perceive within this form is good posture and a stable horse. And one of the keys to this is the developement of the Dan Tin region which also leads to good internal developement. Ah and last but not least a factor that I almost forgot! ... footwork/mobility is built thru our Chum Kiu.

Hey mufty thanks for the convo...it has actually rekindled my interest into a bit of research again. It's good to rehash things that one overlooks or tends to forget.

[mufty]

Hi ya DRleungjan

No im not confussed by your information its just nice to talk to sombody about these historic things.

I would very much like to know if (Saam Jin) is similar to the Fujiban Bai he
'San jan'.

Dose moving horse refer to your stance? as we use sanchin (sanjan dachi), yep angular stepping sound about right. But like I mentiond do you stay in a Horse stance? throughout the dance. You know there is an Okinawan karate kata called Tensho, and I have seen some Wing chun dance that is very similar.

Breathing is interesting, as it derives Ki - Chi - Hei as you say this is very intrinsic within the Oriental martial arts.

We also concentrate our tension from the Tanden (Tanjien), but I have found that the main diffrence between the Okinawan Hakutsuru and the Chinese Bahi he quan is the final position of the body, the spine seems to be more erect in the Bahi He method.

I apriciate that your look at this from your wing chun point of view as this type of discussion becomes interesting from diffrent perspectives. Cool

Do you know any history regarding 'Min Chin Chu Quan' or somtimes known as Pan ki noon ? As I have found in my research that this was the forunner of Luechi Ryu karate as practised on Okinawa. Apparantly it incorperates Crane - Tiger and Bear. It would be nice to hear what you think.

Thanks for chatting.

[mufty]

Hey guys

Do any of you have any forms that link to the White Crane ? if you do let us know what they are, and which techniques relate directly the crane system.

Mine are many:-

Sanjan
Hakatsuru
Paiho
Sasan
Konshiwa
Baihe gon

Some also incorperate Tiger techniques.

Do you incorperate your Crane techniques into your Jundan and Chisau ?

I look forward to hearing from you all.

[DRleungjan]

Hey mufty,

Is is indeed a pleasure when one is able to sit around a coffee table and sensibly discuss martial arts and their relations to one another.

The answer to the first question is a tad easy...LOL. Saam Jin is just a cantonese transliteration of Sanjan/Sanchin so it is the same, at least to my knowledge. Most of the time if you see me write something that I know I would usually render it in it's Cantonese romanization unless I know it by another name. Just a little nuisance on my part...hehehe.

You know there is an Okinawan karate kata called Tensho, and I have seen some Wing chun dance that is very similar.

Heey...hmmmm...good question. Yes, a proper horse must be maintained throu out forms practice. It is essential that one maintains a horse through out. You see, my sifu has a nice euphamism for the Chum Kiu (he's the first person that I have ever heard to use the euphamism). The form is a mobile form with constant stress on keeping a horse. He calls it 'Riding the Horse' because without a proper horse you are already missing a valuable component to not only hold yourself in a fight, but also on the execution of pwoer. This is just as I understand it. As far as the Tensho form you are expressing...are there any vid clips out there that I can see out there to compare to?

We also concentrate our tension from the Tanden (Tanjien), but I have found that the main diffrence between the Okinawan Hakutsuru and the Chinese Bahi he quan is the final position of the body, the spine seems to be more erect in the Bahi He method.

Yes, alignment of the head, with spine, and pelvic area is emphasized for the proper execution of techniques. To use other people's explanations 'it is almost as if you are suspended by a string'. Plus remember that the body needs the to keep the 'energy' channels open so that one is able to properly release energy at the end of any given technique. I guess this is another concept that would tie Bak Hok Kuen and Wing Chun together...and some other southern arts so to speak.

Do you know any history regarding 'Min Chin Chu Quan' or somtimes known as Pan ki noon ? As I have found in my research that this was the forunner of Luechi Ryu karate as practised on Okinawa. Apparantly it incorperates Crane - Tiger and Bear. It would be nice to hear what you think.

Interesting! I haven't heard of that. Thanks for that info. I will have to do a little research on that.

Thanks for chatting.

Any time brother. As long as I have a tad of knowledge on the subject I am eager to discuss and learn in the process.

[Shaolin Master]

For your simplicity:

Uechi Ryu is from Zhou Zihe's Fuqing Huzunquan
Goju Ryu is from Xie Zhongxiang's Minghequan

There are over 12 Styles of Fujian with San Zhan in them.

Huaquan of the south is Gan Fengqi's Huaquan but its methods do not resemble YongChun (Wing Chun) in any way. Hequan is the mother of Yongchun, but Yongchun developed its own uniqueness over time.

5 Elders legends are based on novels (no county historical records are in accord with the story, this does not mean that they were not true as much as it is doubtful that they were real). Taiping rebellion is in the north mainly not south.

Regards
Wu Chanlong.

[mufty]

For your simplicity:

Uechi Ryu is from Zhou Zihe's Fuqing Huzunquan
Goju Ryu is from Xie Zhongxiang's Minghequan

..&.. There are over 12 Styles of Fujian with San Zhan in them.

This is very interesting thank you I shall research a little further with regards to this. Thank you.

Huaquan of the south is Gan Fengqi's Huaquan but its methods do not resemble YongChun (Wing Chun) in any way. Hequan is the mother of Yongchun, but Yongchun developed its own uniqueness over time.

As dose all, we all develop from the small planting of a seed.

5 Elders legends are based on novels (no county historical records are in accord with the story, this does not mean that they were not true as much as it is doubtful that they were real). Taiping rebellion is in the north mainly not south..

Yep quite right, however the Shaolin did move South, during their exile, and they also taught the people their system of crane, which as we know derives from their complete system, and is said to be quicker to teach.

I find it interesting that also many schools have a long stick form, this is of course the shaolin were renouned for their prowess with the spear.



Regards