Question for Alquedia

[Merryprankster]

Guys, you and I are only allowed to express our opinions provided they don't counter the conventional wisdom and embarass the establishment too much.

David Icke believes the world is run behind the scenes by an alien race of reptiles that landed in Canada thousands of years ago. He is quite free to express his opinions and does so. Loudly. And with enthusiasm.

People criticize the governments constantly, call for revolution daily, establish "militia," and racist organizations, organize cults with truly odd beliefs, and espouse all sorts of conspiracy theories about the role of government/UN/religion/illuminati/reptiles in our daily lives.

Yet they are not arrested, jailed or anything else.

What we enforce in the west is not the message, but the manner in which you choose to express it. You can say just about any political, religious, or ideological thing you want as long as it is not a direct threat to somebody's person or life. But if you brandish a weapon while screaming "death to the death-dealers" outside an abortion clinic, expect LE action.

[Ray Pina]

Their strategy is not a bad one. What did they sacrafice .... a few losers? We'd spend $50 million -- or more -- on smart missles to hit the same subways.

Between Sept. 11, the bombings in Indonesia, the attack on our Navy ship, and now London, how many men did they lose? How much expense?

In return, how much news coverage? NYC subways got shut down yesterday, making people worry and think that they could be next. We in NY know we will be hit again.

They are terrorists, they cause terror, that's what they do.

Does it work? Well, if it wasn't for Palenmstinians blowing themselves up no one would know or care about the Isreali/Palenstinian situation.

Would you care about the Muslim situation if not for Sept. 11th?

I find this all very interesting and like watching it unfold.

[TonyM.]

Davis Icke is a gamma programmed disinformationist. That's why he's still free.

[Royal Dragon]

Their strategy is not a bad one. What did they sacrafice .... a few losers? We'd spend $50 million -- or more -- on smart missles to hit the same subways.

Reply]
Yeah, but if we did the job it would have been done right, and the subway would have been leveled.

[Scott R. Brown]

Lets try to keep things in perspective!!

Europe is free and prosperous because America freed it TWICE and rebuilt it once. We could have owned Western Europe, Eastern Europe and much of Asia following WWII, but we don’t because America IS NOT imperialistic. America could have pushed the Soviets all the way back to Moscow if we had wanted to after WWII. We could have created a fully free Europe 50 years earlier, but we keep our commitments to our allies even though they are communist murders!! Our main protagonists during WWII, Germany and Japan, are economic powerhouses because of American COMPASSION & GENEROSITY!!!! America did not gas or combust millions of Germans as they did the Jews!!! America did not RAPE & TORTURE thousands of Japanese as they did Americans and Chinese and other Asian peoples!! We GENEROUSLY rebuilt their countries, helped them establish democratic republics and welcomed them into a partnership with the FREE world and then went about minding our own business!!

America does not conquer nations! America is not imperialistic!!! We are the greatest nation the earth has ever seen! We give more aid to others than all other nations combined! When Islam, France, Germany, Spain, Britain, Portugal, the Catholic Church, China, Japan, Russia, Turks, Mongols, Incas and Aztecs all had their imperialistic periods they did nothing but enslave those under their control. When America defeats an enemy their life expectancy goes up, child mortality goes down, standard of living goes up, freedoms increase, women get equal rights, children get educated. All we do is FORCE DEMOCRACY on them!!! The shame of it all!!! I hope GOD forgives up for our sins!!

As far as the Old Testament is concerned, NO ONE lives by that form of conduct any longer EXCEPT Islamic Extremists!!! The CIVILIZED countries of this world promote freedom, democratic republic forms of government, and open economic markets, that is all!!

Sure there are occasional abuses, but free, open societies provide a means for redress of grievances, change, improvement and the rectifying of abuses. This has not occurred in the past with the worlds REAL imperialistic governments and will not happen under the New Islamic World order either!

[Spark]

To make equal the current behavior of Islamic extremists with that of historical Christianity is not justifiable!! Christian’s have not used force to try to convert other peoples in hundreds of years, and that kind of behavior was from the Europeans, not Americans. !

You should research the history of residential schools. These date back to the 1950s.

[Mr Punch]

Interesting first reply post to mine Scott.

Had a couple of things I wanted to say in return, thinking this was a mature realistic discussion and I might actually learn something, but having just read that last post of yours... I don't think I've actually got any more to say, and I'm reminded why I don't bother taking part in political discussions on this forum.

I'll just say that I don't believe in two wrongs making a right, and (to Merry) I wasn't trying to make a 'stupid moral equivalency argument' - merely trying to point out to MonkeySlap Too in simple terms that Islam is not unique in the negative way he has pointed out.

[Spark]

Lets try to keep things in perspective!!

Europe is free and prosperous because America freed it TWICE and rebuilt it once. We could have owned Western Europe, Eastern Europe and much of Asia following WWII, but we don’t because America IS NOT imperialistic. America could have pushed the Soviets all the way back to Moscow if we had wanted to after WWII. We could have created a fully free Europe 50 years earlier, but we keep our commitments to our allies even though they are communist murders!! Our main protagonists during WWII, Germany and Japan, are economic powerhouses because of American COMPASSION & GENEROSITY!!!! America did not gas or combust millions of Germans as they did the Jews!!! America did not RAPE & TORTURE thousands of Japanese as they did Americans and Chinese and other Asian peoples!! We GENEROUSLY rebuilt their countries, helped them establish democratic republics and welcomed them into a partnership with the FREE world and then went about minding our own business!!

America does not conquer nations! America is not imperialistic!!! We are the greatest nation the earth has ever seen! We give more aid to others than all other nations combined! When Islam, France, Germany, Spain, Britain, Portugal, the Catholic Church, China, Japan, Russia, Turks, Mongols, Incas and Aztecs all had their imperialistic periods they did nothing but enslave those under their control. When America defeats an enemy their life expectancy goes up, child mortality goes down, standard of living goes up, freedoms increase, women get equal rights, children get educated. All we do is FORCE DEMOCRACY on them!!! The shame of it all!!! I hope GOD forgives up for our sins!!

As far as the Old Testament is concerned, NO ONE lives by that form of conduct any longer EXCEPT Islamic Extremists!!! The CIVILIZED countries of this world promote freedom, democratic republic forms of government, and open economic markets, that is all!!

Sure there are occasional abuses, but free, open societies provide a means for redress of grievances, change, improvement and the rectifying of abuses. This has not occurred in the past with the worlds REAL imperialistic governments and will not happen under the New Islamic World order either!

Isn't it a bit early to be drinking?

[Merryprankster]

Whoa Mat! That wasn't directed at you!!! I agree with what you are saying 100%.

My problem is with people who say things like "yeah well, the Christians did it too!"


Ok, they're both awful (as you have pointed out)

Next!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Mat,

I aplogize for offending you! That was not my intention!! I understand these conversations can get intense but my CAPS were meant to empahsize points and not raise tempers or discourage reasoned debate. I would appreciate hearing your comments and will attempt to be less direct or forceful in my responses!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Spark,

As you mention these go back to the 50's and society has improved since then hasn't it. That is my point that free societies seek to improve themselves. There will always be abuses I granted that, but if we didnt seek to become better societies we would still have slavery too wouldnt we!!

Thank you also for your concern but i dont drink. Feel free to reinterpret history, but I doubt you can demonstrate my facts to be incorrect!!

America did free Europe with the help of the British and the Austrailians and the European resitance groups, however they would not have been successful without our assistance. We did rebuild Europe and Japan. We did not rape and pillage as the Germans and Japanese did. Japan and Germany are economic powerhouses. We do not interfere in their internal politics. We still provide for the bulk of their defense. Their economic situations are better because of our assistance. With increased economic circumstances comes an increase it education, life expectancy and lower infant mortality. If we had not rebuilt these countries and provided for their defense they would not have the economic success they do. There is male/female equality in Japan. Millions of people have greater access to freedom.

Patton was not only confident that American and British forces could push the Soviets back to Moscow, he requested permission or at least strongly suggested we do it. If we had then all of Eastern Europe would have been freer sooner!!

Look in an almanac and see how much money America GIVES to other countries. We also forgave France and Germany's War debts to us!


Instead of smart aleck responses, demonstrate me wrong!! Please show me my errors in facts!!

[Spark]

Scott,

My point about residential schools was in rebuttal to your point that Christians haven't used force to convert people in hundreds of years. As you may now know, it happened only 50 years ago - within some of our lifetime's. This is not ancient history.

I apologize for my "smart alek" remark but I honestly don't know where to begin with your post and know there are some more articulate than myself that could dissect your post more readily.

With regards to your views on American Imperialism, I suggest you look up the book "Other Americas, Many Septembers" by Ariel Dorfman. You only need to read the first few chapters to get the point.

It is also fairly common knowledge that by the time America joined WWII Germany was already starting to collapse on itself, and many believed that it would have happened without the help of America. A war on two fronts, neither succeeding any longer. "The Forgotten Soldier" is also a good book that gives insight into a German Soldier's ordeals and you can follow the timeline to where it all went wrong (dating to before America joined in).

Re: rape and pillage - Veitnam?

Re: Japan - if you have been there you would know that there is not male/female equality. Women are still subservient to men, but that has nothing to do with America.

*Millions of people have greater access to freedom*

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean by this or the context you are using it in.

The US gives out heapes of cash but that amount based on the percentage of what they have is one of the lowest.

[Merryprankster]

The US gives out heapes of cash but that amount based on the percentage of what they have is one of the lowest.

Yeah, but you don't measure by percentage, you measure by the actual amount.

50% of your only dollar might be personally impressive, but 5% of 500 million can do a lot more good.

[Mr Punch]

Whoa Mat! That wasn't directed at you!!! I agree with what you are saying 100%.

My problem is with people who say things like "yeah well, the Christians did it too!"


Ok, they're both awful (as you have pointed out)

Next!

I was hoping not.

My problem is with (people like) MonkeySlap who always trots out this "all Moslems are out to destroy non-Moslems" every time anything about Iraq/terrorists/Islam etc comes out.

The fact that they are both awful is neither here nor there. Two wrongs doesn't make a right but it won't stop people trying. And it's trying to ensure the enough mechanisms are in place to try and stop people trying that's the problem.

In AQ's case it's next to impossible, but the following may minimize the damage:

1) making sure Musharaf follows up his clampdown on the more extreme madrassas whilst implementing social prgrammes to replace their teachers for the dispossessed without getting himself blown up.

2) Finishing off the changeover to democracy in Iraq asap, although the extrication process itself is going to be a nightmare. Again this is going to need to find some way of addressing the poverty gap in Iraq, which will be difficult as long as foreign contractors are milking the country for millions of dollars in reconstruction etc.

3) Continuing to support Karzai.

4) Pressurizing the international Moslem community leaders to issue fatwah on the AQ. This again will mean restructuring the (perceived) imbalances in western countries such as the 22% unemployment in teh British Moslem population, to persuade the younger members of the community to join their elders in condemning this behaviour.

5) Pressurizing everybody in states that probably harbour or sympathize with terrorists, whether allies or not, inc, Syria, Jordan, Saudi etc.

Gotta go, way past my bedtime. Just a few thoughts. I'll come back and give you a good spanking later Scotty my boy!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Mat,
I never said ALL Muslims - but I have said, and repeatedly, if you are a GOOD Muslim, as defined by mainstream mUslim thought as taught in Muslim counttries for a good thousand years, you are commanded by God to enslave, torture, or kill the infidel.

It's a command from God.

I'm not clear on any other religion that espouses that 'right from the word of god' in it's holy books.

Then you look at history, and gee, that's EXACTLY what they have been doing - especially if you read thier history books.

It's pretty disturbing, and unless you takke the time to study it, it is easy to fall into the 'all religions are the same' argument. Although I agree that most Middle Eastern religions are prone to abusing the outsider due to the non-syncretic manner of the beleifs taught - but only Islam commands you to kill the infidel.

So, how is this not disturbing?