Question for Alquedia

[Spark]

Yeah, but you don't measure by percentage, you measure by the actual amount.

50% of your only dollar might be personally impressive, but 5% of 500 million can do a lot more good.

Well I guess we're focusing on two different things.

Because you CAN measure by percentage, but you are choosing not to.

So the question is, who is more generous - The person who donates 50% of what they have (which might be a small amount) or the person who donates 5% of a vast sum and keeps the 95% for themselves?

[FatherDog]

Mat,
I never said ALL Muslims - but I have said, and repeatedly, if you are a GOOD Muslim, as defined by mainstream mUslim thought as taught in Muslim counttries for a good thousand years, you are commanded by God to enslave, torture, or kill the infidel.

It's a command from God.

I'm not clear on any other religion that espouses that 'right from the word of god' in it's holy books.

Deuteronomy 13:12-16

'If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; it shall be a heap for ever, it shall not be built again.'

[cam]

Touche Fatherdog!
It is sad but predictable that this thread has to border on bigotry. The truth is, all these monotheistic religions have had great horrors done in their name. I guess it's a bit easier to slaughter your enemy when you get the guarantee of absolution, after all you're fighting HIS enemies aren't you?
Merryprankster is dead-on when he says that most Muslims, as well as must people just want to get on with life.

[KC Elbows]

I was about to make an emphatic point, but Scott Brown used all the exclamation points.

[Merryprankster]

Well I guess we're focusing on two different things.

Because you CAN measure by percentage, but you are choosing not to.

So the question is, who is more generous - The person who donates 50% of what they have (which might be a small amount) or the person who donates 5% of a vast sum and keeps the 95% for themselves?

That's nice and all, but a charity organization doesn't go "Oh goody! 50 cents to fight AIDS!"

Measuring by percentage is disingenuous - it's looking the gift horse in the mouth. Faulting a multi-billionaire because he donates 500 million is petty at best.

[KC Elbows]

Augustine was pretty clear that leaders who were unbelievers needed to die. And he was a saint. Religious fundamentalists are only limited in the damage they can do by the limits of their power, imo.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ha! At least you didn't go the book of laws, because if your a priest, you definitly don't want to pimp your daughter out or the 'blood is on your head.'

Be that as it may, I resent the bigotry claim, as a.) It's just not true, and b.) this does not negate the fact that for a thousand years, killing the infidel is the mainstream of Islamic thought.

The Jews got it beat out of them by Rome, the Christians had a 'new testament' and while they did a good job of killing pagans, this was not endorsed by the new testament.

Middle-Eastern religions scare the ef out of me.

You can attack what I query about all the time, but you still need to look and listen as to what Islam considers mainstream thought. Then, you can really come back with a statement that has meaning.

[David Jamieson]

Ha! At least you didn't go the book of laws, because if your a priest, you definitly don't want to pimp your daughter out or the 'blood is on your head.'

Be that as it may, I resent the bigotry claim, as a.) It's just not true, and b.) this does not negate the fact that for a thousand years, killing the infidel is the mainstream of Islamic thought.

The Jews got it beat out of them by Rome, the Christians had a 'new testament' and while they did a good job of killing pagans, this was not endorsed by the new testament.

Middle-Eastern religions scare the ef out of me.

You can attack what I query about all the time, but you still need to look and listen as to what Islam considers mainstream thought. Then, you can really come back with a statement that has meaning.

Holy Crap dude. The Jews got their own brand of isolationism and exclusionist ways and the Christians despite their new testament have an unparralleled record of killing the heathens.

What a hasid and an orthodox Catholic consider mainstream thought is NOT in line with democracy for the most part.

Mainstream islam is not the hardcore extremists. If it was, I myself would be storming the mosques right now.

[Merryprankster]

Mainstream islam is not the hardcore extremists.

Truth.

Stupid character limit

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hi Mat,

To make equal the current behavior of Islamic extremists with that of historical Christianity is not justifiable!! Christian’s have not used force to try to convert other peoples in hundreds of years, and that kind of behavior was from the Europeans, not Americans. Violent conversion has been the way of Islam from the beginning!! Also just because Christians did it does not make it ok for others to engage in the same activity! Wrong is wrong and just because someone else did it does not make it right! Some in Islam make the contention they are paying back for the crusades, but they fail to acknowledge that the Islamic “IMPERIALISTIC” empire was forged through death and destruction of other cultures!!

Islam is unique in many ways!! Their violent conversion of other peoples started with Mohammed and is justified in the Quran, while destruction of other peoples is only justified in the Old Testament and is not sanctioned in the New Testament. The white slave trade by the Islamic “EMPIRE” made the black slavery of Americans and Europeans look like a Sunday picnic!! Islamic slavery and butchery continues to this day in the Sudan!!! There they don't blow people up with bombs, they come into your village in the middle of the night and hack everyone to death to machetes!! But you are right we shouldn't stand up to this kind of behavior, because we might get hurt or accidently hurt innocents while attempting to stop it!!

Think of the Islamic Extremists as the school bully, I know you would say they are thinking America and Europe are the bullies, but we don’t slaughter innocent people indiscriminately. Yes some died in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they were always unintentional and we kill much fewer BY ACCIDENT, than Hussein and the Taliban did ON PURPOSE!!!! Also America pays reparations to our victims and we rebuild the countries we devastate in the wars we DON”T start!! We help them set up their own form of democracy!! The free world is free because of America!

So back to the bully!! If you allow the bully to be a bully he continues to bully! If you stand up to him you may get hurt, but he will learn there is a cost to his actions that he will have to pay every time he bullies! You don’t back down just because the bully goes to get some of his friends and make your life worse. You get more of your friends and you duke it out until the bully is defeated, if you don’t you will live under fear and oppression the rest of your life.

War is hell but it beats the alternative!!!

The problem is a difference in worldviews between Islam and the rest of the world. They are a problem in every part of the world including Russia and China and they have been that way since the origin of Islam. This is because Mohammed justified the spreading of their faith by the sword. No other religion has ever allowed this. Even the Old Testament didn’t!!

They are tribal minded and stuck in the 12th century. They oppress women and children and non-Muslims. They even oppress each other!! The Sunnis oppress the Shiites and the Shiites oppress the Sunni!!! They want to return to the glory of the Islamic EMPIRE and they want to force everyone in the world to be like them, die, or live under their oppression. America does not do that and we have never done this!!!

The problems in the Middle East started during WWI when the Turks allied themselves with Germany. France and Britain promised rewards for the tribal leaders that assisted them against the Turks. As a result, after WWI the Middle East was divided, not along culture and religious lines, but arbitrarily and consequently you have many historical enemies living within the same country!! This part of the world has not known freedom of thought or activity for the entire 6000 years of civilization there! Only now are some considering the benefits, but they are fighting against a 12th century mindset.

I am sure I will have more to say later, but that is all i have the time for at the moment!

...................


***EXCELLENT post, Scott.

And while I agree with almost everything you wrote, I want to point something out about what happened after WW1 and how the situation has gotten worse and worse:

IT'S ABOUT THE OIL !!!!!!

What England and France did in order to protect and stay in control of the Suez Canal, (and what the U.S. has done since WW2, ie.- backing the Shah of Iran, the Saudi Royal family, the backing of Saddam Hussein when he attacked Iran in 1980)...

all of these things have now come back to bite us in our LUST for their oil and profits for the rich corporations.

The horses we've been backing have oppressed their people - and the U.S. is now seen as the ally of the oppressors.

NOW ADD TO THIS all the fundamentalist, radical extremist Islamic clerics who preach the kind of vile hatred and bigotry that you described so well throughout most of your post...

AND WHAT WE COULD NOW HAVE is a formula for disaster: 10-12-15 Muslim nations falling to extremists through insurgency, terrorism, and the violent overthrow of existing governments - and then ALL OF THEM coming under one umbrella - with a madman like Bin Laden as their LEADER (fuhrer?)...

and the result could be a 10 million man army ready to attack the west - and with some WMD's in their arsenal.

I'm talking WW3.

A war that we would have to win - and would win.

But the cost would be horrific!

We would have to destroy all the RADICAL ISLAMICS...in order not to let them plunge us all back into the dark ages with their savagery and power lust...but multi-millions of people will die in the process.

At which point we would have to ALSO kick the BUTTS of the Big Oil/Energy corporations (and their pals within the Republican Party) once and for all.

What a friggin' mess.

[MonkeySlap Too]

If it isn't the mainstream, why do all the sermons I read sound like something from a Nazi party rally?

When you look at published materials in Arabic, it's all hate, hate, kill, murder, fight, and die for allah... with an occasional exhortation to be 'good' - Is anybody else listening to what they are saying?

I have some American friends who are converted Muslims, and they make all sorts of excuses for this... but it does not truly satisfy the fact that this vile hatred is part of the mainstream. If you read Islamic history, it makes the medeival Christians look like kindly neighbors to the heathens. (Germans who lived in heaths, the first victims in the early crusades.)

[Merryprankster]

If it isn't the mainstream, why do all the sermons I read sound like something from a Nazi party rally?

Have you ever heard of a vocal moderate?

People who feel strongly about an issue are the ones that speak out. It doesn't get much stronger than fundamentalists. It's not moderate preachers on TV, it's evangelicals from the Pentacostal and Southern Baptist traditions, isn't it? We hear from right to lifers and pro-choice activists, but rarely from those whose view falls somewhere in the middle, with qualifiers attached to either side.

Strong feelings about a subject, conviction, translate to speeches, published works, videos, etc. A moderate just doesn't care enough.


There are a large number of liberal Islamic theorists in Europe. Perhaps if I have time, I can scare some of them up. The Sufic tradition is generally quite mellow, and encompasses the traditional Islam practiced in many places, etc. The Islam you are probably quoting from and are familiar with is Wahhabism, which is not followed in many places (but does have the largest outreach -evangelizing- program of all the traditions thanks to Saudi money). But most Muslims are not Wahhabists.

IT'S ABOUT THE OIL !!!!!!

Not really. But it's an easy idea to grab on to so lots of people adopt it.

[mantis108]

I don't know man, MP. I have a website and host forum as well as posting on various MA forum. According to your logic, that'd made me a Kung Fu extremist because I speak out for my style that I am passionate about it?! I guess I better STFU. LOL...

Just wanna lighten things up.

Mantis108

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Spark,

The residential schools were a localized institutional policy and did not occur, as far as I am aware, as international policy of the church! Also children that attended the schools were place there by their “families” and not kidnapped and forced to attend. The force applied once there was not always public knowledge and where it was the onus falls on the parents to change the system, which to my knowledge has occurred. It is not wise to attribute to the whole what occurs or applies to the part. That is why we try to make the qualification we are speaking about Islamic Extremists and not ALL Moslems!

The Rape and pillage you are speaking of in Vietnam was not institutional or governmental policy. They were war crimes and were prosecuted when there was EVIDENCE to convict and proof it truly occurred. In Japan and Germany this behavior was institutional and governmental policy! Again you cannot attribute to the whole what applies to the part, but neither should you only to the attribute to the part what applies to the whole! Japan to this day refuses to apologize for the rape of Nan King!!

If we wish to argue about the freedom of women in Japan, again we must keep it in proper perspective! Women in Japan are not ALL subservient to men. They are professionals, well educated and perform governmental functions as well. This is a marked improvement over their condition prior to WWII. Clearly America did not force our cultural perspective on Japan. What we observe in public is not always what occurs in private as well. There are certain cultural traditions that may be publicly sanctioned, as in “appearing publicly subservient” that does not occur in private! This again is a Japanese cultural trait, that of saving face and not embarrassing another publicly! Women are better now than pre-WWII and that is the point!!

We do not live in a utopia! America is not perfect!! But neither are we the scourge of the world!! As far as world superpowers go we are the best that has existed so far and we have a public and media holds the Government to task when they behave contrary to our moral and ethical ideals! Before America this did not occur with a major world power anywhere in the world in the history of man!! America is self-adjusting, that is my point and we have done more than any other country to help the cause of freedom in this world in the history of man! I am not intending to appear jingoistic, but merely realistic!!! I have tried to admit America makes mistakes, but when Saddam made mistakes did his people the right to redress their grievances? No! They were gassed, tortured and placed in mass graves!!

Hi FatherDog and cam,

No democratic government follows or sanctions the passage of Deuteronomy you quoted. It no longer applies and cannot be used to justify the behavior of Islamic Extremists or to say “see the Jews do the same thing”!! They don’t!! However, Islamic Extremists do choose to promote this form of behavior! And this is why they are criticized and resisted!!

Hi KC,

I used a lot of CAPS too!! DON’T FORGET THE CAPS!!!!

Augustine died a loooooooooooooooooooooong time ago and his policies are no long followed nor are they promoted by governments. Let’s be critical of current behavior!! We can always find something to criticize about the past. Augustine behaved no differently in his culture of the time than anyone else, aside from the fact as a Christian he was supposed to love his neighbor!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is a few extra Exclamation points! Feel free to use them I don’t need them!!! I got plenty!!!!

Hi Ultimatewingchun,

You make some good points as well!!

You are correct about the problems that have been created by our own governmental policies. And they cannot be justified within an ideal world. But we do not live in an ideal world. It is easy to be idealistic when our bellies are full and we live in relative luxury!! However, we also live in a pragmatic world and sometimes it is necessary to do business with bad people even when we don’t accept their internal policies. When faced with two evils, choose the lesser evil!! This is a pragmatic approach and was the decision that America had to make when we supported Saddam over Iran!! It was not something the Clinton administration believed in! Their policy was the CIA was not to use ne’r do well sources when gathering intelligence and that is at least partially responsible for the intelligence flaws of pre-9/11!! All actions have consequences and even the seemingly best laid plans fall prey to the law of un-intended consequences.

Further, while the policy of the American government was to support the Shah, it is unlikely an informed American public would have approved of this! In America we can change the behavior and policies of an administration whose policies and behavior we don’t approve of, we call it voting! In many Islamic countries this is not possible.

There are always those who criticize our government for interfering in the internal policies other countries. Many of these same people that wanted us to do something, in retrospect, about the Shah’s policies DON”T want us involved in changing the policies of Saddam and Osama!! This is inconsistent!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good points again, Scott...

Like I said, it's a friggin' mess.

We need a triple-tracked approach (in an ideal world)...

1) Get ruthless with the extremists.

2) Reach out to the Moslem "Everyman" (the masses) with some real aid and goodwill, including a more even-handed honest broker approach to the Israeli-Palestinian land issue.

3) Get tough with the Corporations, their apologists, and their bought-and-paid-for politician friends about changing our energy priorities.

YEAH, RIGHT!!!

Like these three things are ever going to happen IN TANDEM anytime soon!