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Thread: Question for Alquedia

  1. #1
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    Question for Alquedia

    What exactly do you want, and hope to accomplish by blowing yourself up in a subway?

    For the rest of us, how do we contact Alquedia and ask this question? I really want to know what is motivateing them. WHY so much hatred, and WHY so much raw brutality?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  2. #2
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    They feel they're fighting a war. For better or worse they could not even hope to match the nations they are making war against on a conventional battlefield. Thus, they do what they can to disrupt and terrify these nations by sacrificing themselves for thier ideals. The reason? They feel oppressed. They feel threatened. They believe that we are wrong, and that thier cause is rightous.

    Thier demands?

    1. They want Israel out of Palestine.

    2. They want the west to stop meddling with the middle-east.

    3. They want to establish an Islamic Theocracy worldwide.

    4. They want the western economy to collapse.

    5. They want the middle-eastern economy to dominate.
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  3. #3
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    Thier demands?

    1. They want Israel out of Palestine. -- This is not possible, too many people there. AND blowing up a subway in London won't help the situation.

    2. They want the west to stop meddling with the middle-east. -- Valid point, but still how does blowing your self up on foreinge soil help this?

    3. They want to establish an Islamic Theocracy worldwide. -- Again, self destruction does not a world power make.

    4. They want the western economy to collapse. -- They'd need to do alot more than demolish a subway for this.

    5. They want the middle-eastern economy to dominate. -- They barely have one, they don't know HOW to have an economy. Also, if they blow themselves up, who will be there to run thier economy?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  4. #4
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    Think about it this way.
    The Iraqis do not know what the hell america wants by coming there and blowing stuff up. That is all they see. A market or hotel, or meeting spot or church or whatever is blown up by missiles. They are probably asking the same questions: What does America want??? Only those within the decision making process or maybe a bit more understand that. To the rest of us, we sit amongst the carnage and death that violence and war will always bring. Both sides fight ideologies or concepts and those are things that cannot be blown into submission.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPalm
    Think about it this way.
    The Iraqis do not know what the hell america wants by coming there and blowing stuff up. That is all they see. A market or hotel, or meeting spot or church or whatever is blown up by missiles. They are probably asking the same questions: What does America want??? Only those within the decision making process or maybe a bit more understand that. To the rest of us, we sit amongst the carnage and death that violence and war will always bring. Both sides fight ideologies or concepts and those are things that cannot be blown into submission.
    While there appears to be an organization called Al Qaida in Iraq, the iraqis are not Al Qaida.

    The insurgance in Iraq is sunni led by all accounts and the insurgency is primarily made up of post war mercs from other countries as well as loyalists from Saddams regime who still have access to manpower and weapons of that regime.

    A great deal of recruits for Al Qaida in the west are young and restless people who are easily led into carying out these acts while their directors remain comfortable in their hideaways.

    acts of cowardice in direction, acts of stupidty on the misplaced passions of the Al Qaida recruits.

    It will continue to get greyer and greyer and greyer and the reasons for terrorist actions will bounce all over the place from those listed above to a variety of other reasons.

    Chaos is the only result of this.
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  6. #6
    Last edited by octagonal raven; 07-24-2005 at 02:13 AM.

  7. #7
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    Its hard to talk about the exact aims and beliefs of AlQ since

    a) its a loose association of networks with many autnomous sleeper cells - not a top down hierachy with Bin Laden at the top with captains and foot shoulders underneath him all following a rigid chain of command

    and

    b) the term has/is being used (sometimes consciously and sometimes not) as a catch all umbrella for the general phenomenon of islamic terrorism in the modern age.

    There are many different militant groups in various parts of the islamic world each with their own local domestic agendas. However a common theme is fighting/defeating corrupt secular western oriented dictatorships and replacing them with islamic theocracys. Some examples of the places miltants fight/have fought in are kashmir, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and now Iraq.

    One useful way to think of AlQ is as a venture capitalist group of investors. Militants with their own plans come to the group (Bin Laden and his closest guys - those who have sworn a bayat to him) for funding, training and logistic support and then Bin Laden and his guys chose who they want to sponsor - if it works great, if not there are always others. So they are not commissioning or ordering attacks per se. This also undermines the notion that by destroying terrorist training camps/ALQ leadership you will help to stamp out islamic terrorism - the 9/11 attackers didnt learn to fly in afghanistan; the London bombers would have made the explosives in a bathtub in a flat in england from ordinary household chemicals. Bin Laden is high profile for one main reason: hes rich. But he is by no means the only source of funding in the middle east.

    Why then is the west also a target? IMO to answer this you have to adress the question of what ALQ actually is namely; a revolutionary vanguard that seeks to mobilise and radicalise ordinary muslims into overthrowing the corrupt western backed secular governments that rule them - like in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and previously like Iraq. By attacking the west and hoping to provoke a massive reaction/counter attack they can use that for propoganda purposes and say to the islamic people 'the people who are attacking us are friends/allies of our government's - so lets get rid of the government'.

    I know this is a bit rambling but i hope it makes sense.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

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  8. #8
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    Samurai Jack,

    Not a bad answer, but let's be clear:

    The goal of AQ and its associated movements (collectively termed AQAM) is a worldwide Islamic theocracy, their way. The rest of the things you have listed aren't strategic goals, but operational level ones...just intermediary steps on the way to the worldwide Caliphate.

    This is why I always say that the AQAM is not waging a political war. There is no policy decision anybody could make that would satisfy them, since what they truly desire is a restructuring of the way every individual lives their life. If this WERE a political war, with policy causes, there would be a policy that the AQAM would find acceptable ie, a redrawn boundary here, a concession there... But it's not, and there ain't.

    Why then is the west also a target? IMO to answer this you have to adress the question of what ALQ actually is namely; a revolutionary vanguard that seeks to mobilise and radicalise ordinary muslims into overthrowing the corrupt western backed secular governments that rule them - like in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and previously like Iraq. By attacking the west and hoping to provoke a massive reaction/counter attack they can use that for propoganda purposes and say to the islamic people 'the people who are attacking us are friends/allies of our government's - so lets get rid of the government'.
    Not a bad answer, but I think it overemphasizes the role of the west. I tend to think of the relationship this way: The governments in the ME are like alcoholics, and the west sometimes plays the role of enabler. The alcoholic is still responsible for his condition, and only he can stop it. My point is that I think we need to be careful about assigning blame. The west didn't break it, and the west can't fix it. People who think otherwise often, IME, don't recognize the limits of power. (That doesn't mean that our policies have been wonderful, hunky-dory, altruistic, or even appropriate all the time or even frequently).

    I would also point out that the purpose of this terrorism is not simply to provoke the west into response. It is also to bolster support among their sympathizers. By successfully attacking, they demonstrate they have the capability to "hit us where we live." Nobody joins a losing team!

    RD,

    To answer your question from a technical perspective, revolutionary terrorism, such as that of the AQAM, is war on the highest plane of war - social/ideological. (The others are physical, organizational, technological, mobilizational, from lowest to highest). Terrorism is nothing but a tactic. AQAM is compelled to that tactic out of weakness, not strength. They cannot accomplish their goals in a head to head fight, so they use terrorism - very efficient, but not terribly effective.

    War on the social/ideological plane revolves around legitimacy, which grants social cohesion. The Cold War was probably the greatest war ever fought on this plane. It never came to direct blows, but make no mistake about it, it was a war. The Western model won over the Soviet Communist model because its message was more legitimate. This sowed internal dissent within the Soviet Union and began fracturing the country on certain fault lines that had been supressed for years (ethnic, religious, class, etc). The government could NOT cope with these stressors and the system fell apart because it lost legitimacy. The people simply wouldn't stand for it any longer.

    The Cold War was a LONG campaign of propaganda on both sides, sprinkled with proxy wars. It was also one of performance - the Western model performed better, and in the end it was impossible to deny that. That granted the Western model much of its legitimacy, and provided a generous amount of social cohesion.

    What the AQAM is trying to do is break the social cohesion of the west by sowing doubts about its policies and ideas. They know that a fractured enemy, quarrelling amongst itself, is a broken, weakened enemy with limited ability to project power - and one more likely to leave the AQAM alone. Spain was a COUP for the terrorists. They can point at Spain and say "the enemy is breaking up."

    That gives them time to go from being terrorists to perhaps guerillas - eventually hoping, perhaps, to switch to conventional tactics... you'll recognize the strains of Mao here if you're familiar with his work. I'm inclined to agree with him that you can't win a revolution unless you manage to claw your way through those steps...

    Ok, now I'M rambling. I'd have to write 5 posts to fully explain myself so maybe I'll just shut up now.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

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  9. #9
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    So this isn't about a "We did this, so they do that" kind of thing then?

    Although I am starting to have a "Fuzzy" understanding of this, I'm still pretty confused as to why they don't just attack thier own leadrs, and volly for power? In Iraq at least I understand what is going on there. But in London, when some thought is put to it it really makes no sense.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
    So this isn't about a "We did this, so they do that" kind of thing then?

    Although I am starting to have a "Fuzzy" understanding of this, I'm still pretty confused as to why they don't just attack thier own leadrs, and volly for power? In Iraq at least I understand what is going on there. But in London, when some thought is put to it it really makes no sense.
    it is indeed a we did this so they do that kind of thing. It has gotten grey and the propoganda is thick as cheese, but it always comes down to retribution for some perceived or real injustice on one side or the other.

    Would you be confused still if people "attacked" the leaders of the west because they don't agree with their position and actions and then vollyed for power?

    These people are people just like you and me.
    There are people in our own countries who share the ideology of the extremist fundamentalist islamic movements, there are people who share the ideology of other movements which counter that and there are the greater majority of us who do not subscribe to any ideology at all and yet we are eventually going to be forced into making a choice because of the actions of so very few people comparitively.

    Not exactly hell on earth...yet, but growing closer every day. There is a very real possibility of another WW occuring.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    These people are people just like you and me.
    There are people in our own countries who share the ideology of the extremist fundamentalist islamic movements, there are people who share the ideology of other movements which counter that and there are the greater majority of us who do not subscribe to any ideology at all and yet we are eventually going to be forced into making a choice because of the actions of so very few people comparitively.
    No. I completely disagree with you on this.
    These people are not like us. They are taught from a very young age that anyone who is not like them(thier sect of thier religion) is an infidel and less than an animal. That means killing somone who doesn't belong to thier group is a good thing, and encouraged if not rewarded. This includes members of other sects of the same faith, other cultures, other religions, women, and other races.

    In Western countries, while there are extremist groups, they are for the most part allowed to practice thier beliefs freely. In the West, only when one group's actions cause harm to others, do we have conflict, and never in the proportions or extent of what comes from the Middle East.

    So, to answer the original question of what do these people want...
    They want to kill everyone who isn't like them, and then live in a world of thier design.

  12. #12
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    Armageddon...
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuHung
    No. I completely disagree with you on this.
    These people are not like us. They are taught from a very young age that anyone who is not like them(thier sect of thier religion) is an infidel and less than an animal. That means killing somone who doesn't belong to thier group is a good thing, and encouraged if not rewarded. This includes members of other sects of the same faith, other cultures, other religions, women, and other races.

    In Western countries, while there are extremist groups, they are for the most part allowed to practice thier beliefs freely. In the West, only when one group's actions cause harm to others, do we have conflict, and never in the proportions or extent of what comes from the Middle East.

    So, to answer the original question of what do these people want...
    They want to kill everyone who isn't like them, and then live in a world of thier design.
    This is an interesting viewpoint.

    But I think it is misguided and tainted with a little more than a bit of the propoganda in regards to the islamic faith of late.

    There is a segment who indeed are filled with hate, but there is a segment of western populations that is like this as well. Would you blanket the west with a statement like this because of the views and agenda of say David Duke and the KKK? Or would you be apologetic about that segment? BTW, that segment at one time numbered in more than a million.

    Or how about the right wing christians? Or radical jewish extremists? How are they different?

    Point being, extremism is extremism and not everyone gives it buy in however, the elements of it must be dealt with.

    If we continue to fight fire with fire, all of us are gonna get burnt.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #14
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    If we continue to fight fire with fire, all of us are gonna get burnt.

    Reply]
    If we don't, we STILL get burnt, and they grow in strength and power, and burn us more because of that. If we give them back the fire that they present us with, yeah, we still get burnt, but it keeps them in check and we don't get burnt as badly in the end.

    So, to answer the original question of what do these people want...
    They want to kill everyone who isn't like them, and then live in a world of thier design...


    Reply]
    Yes, I can see that, but why now, why not 20 years ago? or 100 years ago? Is it just that they are reaching critical mass now?

    And with the escalation in attacks over seas, how long untill we see more here?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    This is an interesting viewpoint.

    But I think it is misguided and tainted with a little more than a bit of the propoganda in regards to the islamic faith of late..
    Actually, I work with people who are of the Islamic faith every day. They agree with me. Admittedly, I was too broad or inclusive in my previous post. Not everyone of the Islamic faith fall into the category of the extremist.

    Also, I have done a fair amount of research on this issue, going back as far as the early 1990's when I was in a more "international" line of work, and had to deal with the Middle East on a daily basis.

    As far as propoganda...The news is always a bit skewed, but while there are Jewish extremists, and Christian extremists, I would be surprised to see reports of thos groups blowing up a London subway station, or World Trade Center.

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